Using Coalition Models to Establish Cultures of Trust
In Organ Donor Authorization
Part of the huge job in successfully building healthy communities lies in accurately identifying behaviors that lead to breakdowns which impede progress. Episode II will explore co-work processes which enable organizations to effectively build and maintain internal trust; while also examining models of coalition development that map targeted, evaluative measures, which create effective collaborations and cultures of trust.
Highlights of the Episode
In public health, and public health, it's essential to have trust between those who provide services and those who are consumers of services
In the line of in working with organ procurement organizations and hospitals and physicians, you know, ultimately, our focus is on these families that have lost a loved one
Trust and integrity, that, for me is foundational trust means everything
Trust is woven into every aspect of what we do
You can tell who people are pretty much in the first 10 seconds
It's not about being successful in your organization, it's about being successful with people
It is making sure that you can give everything that you have of yourself, to help them and that gaining something in return
We have to break down those words and concepts, and perhaps shape them in a way that's culturally appropriate and sound for our community
If you go into a hospital, and your expectation is for your loved ones life to be saved, and you don't know that they have died, and there has been times where the conversation of organ donation has happened prematurely of a person dying
I started that conversation with my daughter and family. It's in my advanced directive that I'm an organ donor
Trust is always talking to that person where they are without any assumptions without trying to push them into a box or category
Profound Conversations Executive Producers are the Muslim Life Planning Institute, a national community building organization whose mission is to establish pathways to lifelong learning and healthy communities at the local, national and global level. MLPN.life
The Profound Conversations podcast is produced by Erika Christie www.ErikaChristie.com
Full Transcript
Joia Jefferson Nuri
Welcome everyone. My name is Joia Jefferson Nuri. And this is Profound Conversations. This is episode two of this season, our third season doing this. And today we're going to continue a conversation we had a couple of weeks ago on trust. We all know the importance of trust in our personal lives. But what does trust mean, in the medical profession for the OPO community, for doctors, what is trust actually mean? So I'm going to read the definition of trust as they find in craft by Webster's Dictionary. Webster says, belief that someone or something is reliable, good and honest. Relationship is founded in mutual love and trust. It goes on to say that assured reliance on character, ability, strength, or truth of someone or something, one in which you place your confidence. That's how Webster defined it. And we have three really great guests today who all come from backgrounds that are founded on trust. Our first guest is Michael Browning is a national recognized nationally recognized health program developer. Welcome, Michael to the program.
Michael Browning
Thank you. Good to be here. quite excited about the topic.
Joia Jefferson Nuri
Thank you. Thank you. I'm glad you're here. Michael, Shawn-Paul Harrison is the physician and donation specialist for the Louisiana organ procurement agency. Shawn-Paul, welcome.
Shawn-Paul Harrison
Thank you so much. It's an honor to be with you all.
Joia Jefferson Nuri
And those of you who know anything about Profound Conversations, you know, Samuel Shareef, is a co founder of the Daniel Santa Shareef Foundation, and the Muslim life Planning Network Institute. He's also the CO executive producer of Profound Conversations. Welcome to this side of the camera. Samuel.
Samuel Shareef
Thank you very much. Joy, you. Everyone involved.
Joia Jefferson Nuri
Thank you. I read the definition of trust. How did that resonate with you, Michael, what did that mean to you?
Michael Browning
Well, you know, you mentioned my background in public health, and public health, it's essential to have trust between those who provide services and those who are consumers of services, and everybody who supports those consumers of services, their village, per se. And that village is a group of folks who work together to make sure that there is sound trust in the community, in relationship to whatever the public health topic is. We've seen recently here with COVID, how important trust is. And for me, that was essential and pulling together a group of folks to help folks through every phase of this pandemic. And it was quite essential for those folks who are people of color, especially those members of our community who are black, African American, and the levels of trust throughout the community community, which was essential to really get folks involved and coming up with strategies to really address our complex issues.
Joia Jefferson Nuri
Okay. Sean, Paul Ross, defined by Webster, how did that resonate with you?
Shawn-Paul Harrison
You know, one of the first things that came to mind is just vulnerability, you know, in the line of in working with organ procurement organizations and hospitals and physicians, you know, ultimately, our focus is on these families that have lost a loved one, something that was greatly unexpected, and, you know, in order to, to share that space with them at that time, to support them, you know, it's you know, it's the most difficult day of their life and to to earn the trust of a family that has lost something and you're trying to gain something from them. You know, it's, it's finding a balance, to be able to be in a safe place to give them you know, all of what you have in for them to allow you to enter that space. And ultimately, hopefully, give some hope to them, and, and also to save the lives of others to their hero.
Joia Jefferson Nuri
So this would be something by which you want people to place their confidence in You, your organization or people who do what you do? Yes, ma'am. Exactly. Samuel, you heard the Webster's Dictionary version of definition of trust, how did that resonate with you?
Joia Jefferson Nuri
That brings me to my next question for all three of you, gentlemen. Samuel mentioned, trust being there, his wife, building that trust, that ties into your personal integrity, your own value system, you each have professions by which you are building coalitions, you are building relationships. On a personal level, what does it mean to your own personal values? Not just a job? That can't be just the job? And I'm going to go to you first, Michael, your personal values and the work you do?
Michael Browning
Well, thank you for that question. And I appreciate that question quite a bit. It's almost everything that I do, is trust is woven into every aspect of it, from researching a project to writing up a project to implementing a project to evaluating a project. Trust is essential. And growing up in an African American community and near Detroit, trust of the system was quite important, because of the fact that 99% of the institutions were not institutions, with black leadership or faces of black people, when you walk into the dorm, maybe a doc, a black doc, here, a black nurse there, but 99% of the services were not. And so there had to be this propensity from within us to want to trust them, which was developed through our parents, and our parents taught which folks you trust, and which folks you do not trust. And I think that's inherent in any African American family on how we look at services. But their propensity to trust is something that's developed through time through family and through institution. So what I do is trusted the very first conversation that I'll have with any collaboration that I engage in, especially around health, and public health, because of the historical nature of some of the things that have happened in the black community, we have to start off acknowledging those things, so that we can begin to build that trust that mutual trust, so that we can move forward with whatever that services is. So for me, it's almost an essential guiding principle for every aspect of the work that I do.
Joia Jefferson Nuri
And it sounds to me, Michael, that what your parents taught you to do, was to develop an instinct. You don't you can tell who people are pretty much in the first 10 seconds. You might not know their story, but you have an instinct that tells you whether you're comfortable there, or you're not. I mean, I've met people, all races on the planet and I trusted them immensely from the first conversation People who are walking toward me that I've never talked to I'm like, oh, that's your energy. Right? Right. So it's an instinct about trust. Sean Paul want to go to you about personal values and how it ties into what you do.
Shawn-Paul Harrison
You know, Michael brought up a good example. I mean, it's, it's something that I was thinking of even going into the day because, you know, there's so many people that influence you from from being a child to a young adult and into an adult. And, you know, my father was the greatest example for me, because, you know, relationships, and that foundational, really shipbuilding that you have. And trust, again, whenever we have new staff members that come into our organization, I've been here I made 19 years, almost two weeks ago. And one of the things whenever they asked me, What is the key to being success in this organization, it's not about being successful in organization, it's about being successful with people. And, and trust in those relationships are the most important things. For me personally, and also as an agency, but then I use that as far as for how important it is, you know, in working with physicians, and I'll probably get into that a little bit more, but I want to go back to the families because, you know, like you just said, you know, you could almost tell something about a person within those very few seconds. And whenever we go to support a family, during that intimate time of loss, we are a stranger, they don't have any idea who we are, and we're going into the support them. And so you do have to have, you know, more than just one thing I'll say is there's no agendas. You know, it's it's basically helping people genuinely and sincerely helping people, no matter, you know, the different race, socio economics, you know, all of these different things, we even, you know, we have a lot of language barriers and stuff like that, from time to time, it is making sure that you can give everything that you have of yourself, to help them and that gaining something in return.
Joia Jefferson Nuri
earlier before we came on the air, Michael, you talked about terminology. And, and Shawn talked about language barrier shelf. And what I was hearing may not necessarily be language barrier, as in English, and Spanish or Chinese and Vietnamese, but it could be language barriers that are cultural. And so Michael, tell us a little bit about terminology, and maybe those cultural barriers that you won't have to face, in the work you do. And language it,
Michael Browning
you know, that you there's always a word about words, you know, for example, the word procurement, you know, that's a word that's difficult for black people to hear, when you talk about a very important decision, like John Paul said, that you'll need to make, you know, within within a relatively short period of time. And so first of all, they're gonna have to think about procurement. And then they'll think about, well, that's related to buying some type of service, some type of something, but it's related to business, it's related to commerce. And one thing black folks don't want to hear is that, you know, the donation of their family members sell organs is about somebody buying or trading and, and doing something as for commerce. And so you know, that's a particular word that needs to be broken down. So black folks really understand the concept, but probably not used when you're, you know, addressing black people around this particular issue. And so we learned a lot about that, again, you know, I'm gonna use COVID examples, because the fact that it's hot and burning, and there's so many lessons we learned from this, about the terminology that we use, about even vaccinations and the testing, because of what happened in Tuskegee and, and other leaks and other experiments on our people. We have to break down those words and concepts, and perhaps shape them in a way that's culturally appropriate and sound for our community. And that they don't have to go back and look up in a dictionary and try to determine for themselves, what it really means. And that's that trust propensity is that, you know, we trust you because you're reliable, and that you're providing consistent, credible information in the language that we can receive it. You know, and I'm glad John Paul talked about the language barriers, because for us, it's not a different language, per se, like I said, Spanish, Chinese, Vietnamese, but it's the context in which you speak to us. And it's the way in which you speak to us and the way that you break it down to let us know that you really understand what we as black folks are experiencing, especially when it comes to loss, because the loss in a black family is so very different from losses in other families. I've had the experience in public health to work with all nationalities and when I'm with a family who's going through loss, you know, there's a way that black folks More than a way that black folks think about organ donation I think is very distinct. And so finding those key words that will engender trust is essential.
Joia Jefferson Nuri
I want to ask you about the word I want you to add on to what he's saying. But I want to add a word in that you use the word, Drummond. Yes, ma'am. I want to add procurement to harvesting. And if you could please answer the address what, what Michael said,
Shawn-Paul Harrison
yeah, no, and I appreciate that. Actually, I was gonna piggyback off of what Michael was saying, as far as for the, the, you know, the language. Another way I even view it is, is just the medical terminology, you know, and the way that we break it down for everyone. And one of the things and in working with, with hospital staff, and physicians, and also our group and doing training, is making sure that we're not assuming that something is understood. You know, you know, harvesting is not is a word that we have not used for over 20 years. Because, you know, it is something that, you know, it's it's the recovery of organs, or the recovery of gifts, that will save someone else's life. And you know, and that's not trying to make it in a way. That is, that is the right way to say things. You know, it also like with procurement, it's the same thing, as you know, as far as for the recovery of those organs to be donated and transplanted to someone else that need. And so, you know, when we're talking about not talking to, especially not talking at a family, and one of the things too, is asking questions that goes back to that assuming where, you know, and a lot of the the relationship building with physicians, because they don't get this training in college. This is not a part of their curriculum. You know, this is a part of life experiences and working with families and making sure that, you know, that we recognize that families, you know, sometimes they don't even know what questions to ask, but giving them the opportunity, and not assuming that they understand it. And also not having a judgement, if they don't, you know, a lot of times they just the intimidation, of being in a foreign place, much less the hospital, and then you're dealing with all of the heavy load of losing a loved one and having to make decisions. Because in as far as for organ donation, this is not generally someone that's been in the hospital for weeks or months, this is something that where they've they've suffered this within a day, or even a couple of days. So this is a lot that they're trying to handle to make sure that we could walk them through this grief journey, and offering them the opportunity of donation at the appropriate time. Not Not, not as soon as you're introducing yourself to them.
Joia Jefferson Nuri
Samuel, you have your organization's throughout your career. And as the founder of Muslim life Planning Institute, can you address these look, this issue of trust and languaging for us?
Joia Jefferson Nuri
from how would you like to respond to that?
Shawn-Paul Harrison
I would, thank you. What is Mr. Saying, thank you for sharing that story about your daughter. You know, that really adds so much to today. And what I would like to say is, is that, you know, that is very important. You know, trust is the most important thing in what we do is because one of the things that we've really worked hard at and put all of our efforts in is to make sure that the conversation of donation does not happen prior to a family being notified of their loved ones death, because that's where trust is completely lost. Because if you go into a hospital, and your expectation is for your loved ones life to be saved, and you don't know that they have died, and maybe and and oftentimes there has been times where the conversation has happened prematurely of a person dying, asking about donation. And that is, you know, I could get on a soapbox for the rest of this day. And I apologize. But no, it's very important because they go into the hospital, and they're expecting their loved one to be saved. And then next thing you know, there has been times where conversations of donation have come up. And that's when there's challenges, roadblocks, all kinds of things that become a part of this process. And they can't even start the grieving process, because now they don't believe everything that was done to save that person's life. They think well, you just all you're doing is we brought your loved one here. And I just want the organs to save someone else's life. Right. And that is about the process. And I apologize for any family that has ever gone through that. So we make sure that once a person has died, that's the only time of when the the conversation of donation that comes up unless a family is asking questions prior to
Joia Jefferson Nuri
exactly. I want to now go into what I'm going to call the nitty gritty. These relationships as Samuel gave a great example of how the procurement doctor came in and established herself. And so there was this coalition building and then the regular doctors and then later on and there's all these steps that hospital in Tampa obviously thought all the way through. And as you're saying, Sean Paul, not everybody has thought this all the way through, you know, their policies may be off. You guys know, but I want to say for the audience, Profound Conversations is built not just want a group of people sitting in a room making up the topic and making up the questions. And then, you know, bringing in a moderator, they have ideation labs, where they bring in the best in the field, to talk about it, the head of this show, and then the show is shaped around that wisdom. Well, in the last ideation lab, there was Karima Abdulah. Shu is the retired director of the National Community of anti drug coalition Institute. And she started a conversation in the ideation lab that I thought was so profound. I've asked the producers to play a part of this for you for us. But she has a profound quote that I want to read to you before we play the video. And she says the increase in trust is proportional to the increase in great outcomes. So we can listen to miss Abdulah, for just a few minutes here, and then I want to come out and talk to everybody here about that. And also, if you're listening to us, and you want to add a question to the chat, please do so or read those in our q&a section. But we get listened it now.
Kareemah Abdullah
Trust is the bedrock and foundation in any relationship. So where there is no trust, ultimately, there will be chaos. And what we found and what I know from experience is that any type of work where multiple people, multiple entities, who may have a shared agenda, but then have their own specific goals and objectives for their organization, community work is messy. And because it is messy, the first principle is trust. And when we found that trust wasn't present, it was generally due, because one of the each organization had not clearly identified and establish what their role was their desire, what their goals and what their some people believe a hidden agenda might be. And if people perceive there's a hidden agenda, then they're less likely to trust and to be able to give all that they can to the success of the collab collective endeavor. So we always made sure that we looked at the principles from the levels of CO work. And these levels of CO work allowed us Earl Yolen, to establish the trust factor by making sure that there was a complete transparency, everyone's organizational role, or individual desires and their agreements for impact, were clearly delineated. When there was lack of communication, and there was not transparency, trust became even more difficult. And it certainly did. Cause in a lot of communities, the results not to be as great as or significant as they could be. So we had every member of the team for every initiative that we worked on, establish where they were in the levels of CO work, starting with no communication. There are people who, you know, you can try to force people to engage, and if they are at a place in their work, and for their organization, where there's no communication, we honor that. That means that, you know, you could send them information, but it would be one way. I mean, we could keep them informed. The next was communication where they were willing to accept communication, they might send us communication, but you aren't expecting that they're actually going to work at that next level of cover, which is going to be cooperation, right, where they're willing to work and put something put a stake in the ground. And they've got an investment in the outcomes that you're all working toward. So we have those folks that were you know, in willing to cooperate. So that means they may provide information, they may provide some people to an but clearly identifying the roles. The next was coordination, where we've decided that for this particular initiative, I met the level of coordination coordination will I'm willing to work on a committee work with a team that has specific objectives and outcomes and timelines, and my organization is going to send a decision maker to be involved and engaged in that process, so that we are not operating in here, say, we've got a stake in the investment, we are present accounted for, and we're holding ourselves and this entire entity accountable, then we have the next level highest level, being collaboration, a collaboration meant that we're willing, and we're invested, and working together to create something new. And as we're doing that, we're willing to in to invest more of whether it's out not just it could be human capital, it could be financial resources. It could be, you know, facility space, but we're willing to put in more, and we are committed to creating a new innovation, perhaps that may not exist. But when we complete this, there are going to be better outcomes, we're going to have a targeted evaluative measures, that's going to allow us to know that we've been successful in the work that we've done.
Joia Jefferson Nuri
When I first heard that, I don't think I have heard building an organization building a coalition broken down like that, but I bet you and all the coalition's I've been a part of, I can identify the people in each one of those steps. Okay. So I would love for anybody to jump in now to talk about what he calls cold work. You all have to have I mean, I'm going to start with Sean Paul, I'm going to start with Sean Paul, simply because in the work you do, you have to build a coalition with a lot of people, families, whatever process you're using for donation, securing those donations, all of that has to be so what did you think about what Kareem Abdul I have to say there?
Shawn-Paul Harrison
One is that I was a part of that aviation lab and heard that at the at the time, and it stuck with me ever since. You know, in in going back to I'm not going to go through the entire story. But I wanted to go back to as far as for, you know, those times when maybe there was a process breakdown those conversations that maybe had happened prematurely, you know, and unfortunately, we see those less and less because of what she said with the collaboration, because this is not something that just a Lopa or the organ procurement organization can do, we can help direct it, you know, but ultimately, it's because of these families, and also the lies that need to be saved, that are on the waiting list. Those are what we're working towards. But you're right, you know, and building that coalition within the hospital. You know, there's so many people that are a part of that process of supporting families, not just the physicians, the the nursing staff, palliative care, pastoral care, you know, all the ancillary departments, they're all touched by this. And there's a there's a, there's a piece of trauma that everyone feels to this loss, because this is not the transplant side. This is the death side of it. And, and so, you know, I think that what you see more and more within these facilities in these these hospitals, is the impact that it has not just on the lives being saved. But what it gives to the family. You know, that despite their loss, something good can happen, maybe not today, but they see these families coming back. And during the course of that process, you know, we're doing things like honor walks, for the for their loved one, flag raising ceremonies, heartbeat recordings, things that we can do for the families, so that everyone feels and knows that this person that has died is a hero saving the lives of others. And I think that does build that trust culture within the hospital that you're all working towards something that can help others.
Joia Jefferson Nuri
Okay. Samuel, your comments on what Karima had to say.
Joia Jefferson Nuri
50,000 people are on the donor list?
Shawn-Paul Harrison
just say this, too, is that you know, the same this is a quick comment. I know that a lot of the perspective that I'm giving is inside these hospitals, but 100% agree that the culture, the trust, it starts in the community, you know, if the if the community trust, when they're in that, when they're in that situation and to make getting a decision, that'll be one that they make for themselves and other people. So it does start in the community. Thank you,
Joia Jefferson Nuri
Michael.
Michael Browning
Yes, well, thank you very much for that and showing Karima she is definitely an expert in the field. And I've worked alongside her on that level of CO work since the late 80s, early 90s. And I know it to be fact, the information that she has shared. And even you know, at my level of the co working coalition work around public health, you know, I was most recently involved with a total breakdown of trust with a COVID coalition that was set up to do exactly what she talked about, and what we plan to do here around public health issues and decisions that families need to make. And it was all because of the fact that there was not that clear understanding up front about shared resources and shared knowledge and share clientele. And so I know where the breakdown was. And I'm helping others to see that it's going to be essential as we talk about, you know, the heart, the procurement of, of donors. And and that whole issue because as Sean Paul said, I really appreciate everything that he has shared, thus far related to this, to make a decision like that in such a short period of time, when you're grieving is just so tough, and that this CO work is so essential, because what it does, first of all, it shows that there is a reliable system, with the folks that you work with, because they have a system that you can rely on that it's consistent. So if you work through those steps that Karim just talked about, there's consistency there. And folks need to know that you're consistent, you don't have a way for black folks, you don't have a way for this folks to have a way for that, folks. But it's a consistent across the board. And that there is some sincerity and the level of work that you're doing that you're not only here because of your agenda. But you're here because the collective and shared agenda, and also integrity. And that's one of the main points that we like to push around trust and CO work and collaboration is that I'm coming here, I know that my agency is funded to do XY and Z and putting on the table. That's why my director allowed me to be here. But I buy into the share collective vision of this group of making sure our people have the opportunity to do whatever it is x, y and z. So those levels of CO work are just essential and pulling our people
Joia Jefferson Nuri
in. Yeah. Sean Paul listed on some of the people who are part of the CO work and a hospital to talk about this. You know, everybody touches everyone you said. But I know that in the African American community in general, that there is a fear of organ donation is based on historical abnormalities around black people or health. I mean, the Tuskegee experiment comes in And then there is this fear that as you, as you mentioned earlier, that you're going to take my my brother's organ to save somebody else, when you could have saved my brother. So if I say yes to this organ donation, you'll start working on my brother. I'm wondering in this co working to overcome this cultural distrust. Would the coworking working process be illuminated? If you got pastoral sororities, fraternities, you know, the Greek people, you know, involved in this conversation, because people depend on their pastor. If you went to college as a black person, you more than likely belong to some Greek organization, okay to bring the thought leaders in the black community, not the politicians, I'm not recommending the politicians. But I am recommending other people who help shape black thought, Is it? Should we expand the co working arena to include those voices as part of the community outreach? And one, you know, like, anybody can answer that whoever wants to answer.
Michael Browning
I want to answer really quickly, and then allow others because because the work that Karima just explained, that part is key, because there needs to be those folks and those faces and those voices at the table, you know, my mother had to start discussing the end of life, or her end of life with us when we were very young. So by the time she passed away, you know, there was no arguing there was no this and that you hear all the time that you know, folks and fell out and you know, don't speak to each other after somebody died. Because all these tough decisions need to be none of that happened. It was only because she instilled in us and had a sit with her to plan this out. So that we were clear. So including family members, sororities and fraternities are absolute. Faith leaders are absolutely essential in doing that, and other civic organizations which touch communities. And one key element of that trust is to make sure black folks know that you're not just going to be harvesting my loved ones organs...
Joia Jefferson Nuri
We haven't used harvesting in 20 years.
Shawn-Paul Harrison
Michael, we haven't used harvesting in 20 years.
Joia Jefferson Nuri
Shawn-Paul, what are we saying now?
Shawn-Paul Harrison
The recovery of those organs for...
Michael Browning
Yeah, in a cynical sense I'm using because they know that you're taking them to give to some white folks you're taking to the rich folk.
Joia Jefferson Nuri
As opposed to being a gift.
Michael Browning
And that black folks are on that list to get them and not at the bottom of the list. So that we're not even on the list of receiving those donations, because that's that perception is that the rich are going to get them and the poor folks and people of color are not going to get those organs. So that's something that needs to be dispelled. And I think that that's where that harvesting come in, because I think you're harvesting to give them to those folks over there and not to our people.
Shawn-Paul Harrison
I mean, community education is, is definitely the key community education is definitely the key of where it all starts. You know, like I said, before, you're ever entering the walls of a hospital, you know, hopefully, you know, we never wish for anyone to be in it. But, you know, obviously, as far as for reality, that's not the case. And, you know, fortunately, we have some wonderful volunteers, donor families and recipients that are African American, they're in the community with us, which is so important. You know, it's it's one thing for me to go out and share. But when you have someone that has been through that experience, who's walking through the grief journey, or has received the gift that is sharing in the same places that you're talking about, that's where it needs to be,
Joia Jefferson Nuri
you know, I want to add, I want to applaud your mother, Michael, for having a conversation early, I started that conversation with my daughter and family. It's in my advanced directive that I'm an organ donor. You know, I hopefully one time I died, none of my organs will be worth it, anybody. I'll be 100. But I have made it clear, as a matter of fact that you walked in my house and looked at all the art I've collected around the world. And I've already told them who gets what argument of this. So So, Samuel, what is your response to including Greek societies and all the other community into this cowork?
Joia Jefferson Nuri
We only have a few minutes left, but I think I'm going to first I want to acknowledge Michael's Greek organization which he now displays behind him. And which organization is that? Your kappa?
Michael Browning
Kappa Alpha PSI?
Joia Jefferson Nuri
I'm not Greek. I'm not sure if Shawn knows, just assuming. So I didn't know what that means. He's just another pretty boy. I guess that's something we knew about Kappa.
Samuel Shareef
There's this kind of an inside...
Joia Jefferson Nuri
Okay. All right. So let's bring it up for to the audience for any q&a. Do we have any questions, Erika, that we want to address here? Or should I read them off? The chat? Okay, well, and going through the chat, I'm really bad at this people. Um, this chat thing? I don't see any questions. Oh, trust and transparency go hand in hand. Perhaps some language and Mystique surrounding the industry may benefit from appropriate and progressive marketing activities that enable the conversation to be less scary, to the point less and less informing. And far away from the negative publicity around. She says harvesting, grooming, and the black market dark side of things. The truth is, yes, these things happen. And there will always be an opportunity for good things to be negatively negatively affected. But that's more rare than the good that actually outweighs the ills I want to thank. I'm gonna mispronounce your name, but it's in a y y. I are NIPR. So I'm going to mispronounce it, please forgive me. But what do you guys think of that?
Michael Browning
Yes, I appreciate that comment. And one of the things that I want to add to that is when you're thinking about faith, religion, or associated groups of people, one thing you know, for example, in the Christian faith, they you know, the issue is okay, well, if I'm going to be resurrected, I want to make sure that all my organs are intact. When the Lord comes back for me, I'm still who I am. And so it's an issue of having conversations with folks to help them where they are. Because if that's where they are, that's where they are. We can't change that. But what we can do is talk them through how there's another way to look at that in their particular faith and with their particular understanding. So it's really you know, that trust is always taking that person where they are without any assumptions without trying to push them into a box or category, but this is you and we're dealing with you the way the best way that we know how to deal with you as an Indian vitual Shawn-Paul?
Shawn-Paul Harrison
I mean, just for the sake of time, I mean, I agree with everything he's saying. And that's why, you know, one of the things that we stand on his donation is not a question. It's a conversation. You know, it's not a yes or no that because you have to meet people where they're whether what are their beliefs? What are their thoughts? You know, what are their misconceptions and things like that? Because, you know, if you could dispel those, then then maybe a gift that they're able to receive and give is not stolen from them.
Joia Jefferson Nuri
Right, exactly, Samuel,
Samuel Shareef
I don't have anything that that grateful that we have John Paul, and Mike was able to share you and Greenland's for what for to build upon where we're trying to go, to have this opportunity.
Joia Jefferson Nuri
We have a few minutes left. And I'm going to put all three of you on a spot. Okay, if you had the microphone and the camera facing you, and you wanted to talk about trust, OPO health, Building a Better Health Society. And you had 30 seconds, or somewhere around there to say what you want to say, what would you say to the audience? And unfortunately, Samuel, I'll put you up first.
Joia Jefferson Nuri
Thank you, Michael.
Michael Browning
Yes, and I'd like to piggyback exactly on that that integrity, piece, and reliability, that were reliable for good communication, were reliable for facts, were reliable for looking at each individual, as each individual, were reliable for making sure that the medical procedures and the procedures that occur are sound, were reliable for consistency, the reliability so that when that next family is faced with that, in the folks that we work with, we can go back and share. Those folks over there are reliable, and that they aren't have integrity, and you can trust what they say and what they do.
Joia Jefferson Nuri
Thank you. Last but not least, Sean Paul,
Shawn-Paul Harrison
You know, I was just trying to think about it as quickly as possible. Because of the time you know, one of the things that I would say is, is not only you know it, I would like to say a lot. But the other thing is to whatever we say is that we're following up through it. And it's kind of gets us going back to that consistency. Because a lot of people say things, you know, and it's making sure that we can follow through with what's being said, and and not being an empty message. And also, the dialogue is not just one sided, but we're hearing about what others what are their thoughts, what are their concerns? What are those things so we could meet them again, where what Michael said, meeting them where they need to be met. So letting allowing us to know the direction that we need to go in?
Joia Jefferson Nuri
Yes, I want to thank all of you for taking the time out of your very busy and very important schedules to join us here today for Profound Conversations. As I said to you all before the program, each one of these I host, I come out a better person. I know more, the research informs me. And I can hope and pray that the audience feels the same way. And I'm sure they will. Thank you all very much thanks to Samuel And Kareem, our executive producers and Erica, our virtual assistant for making sure this happens. And all of the people who line up to be of service to a better healthy community. Namaste day.
Michael Browning
You've been a great hostess. I really absolutely.
Joia Jefferson Nuri
Thank you. Thank you very much.
Shawn-Paul Harrison
Thank you. It was an honor.
