Managing Mental Health and Wellness During Turbulent Times

Managing mental health and wellness during turbulent times will be a Profound Conversation focusing on important best practices for families to continue to thrive and live together in peace and harmony during times of heightened stress and uncertainty. Our presenters posses a wealth of knowledge in the areas of clinical mental health, chaplaincy and Islamic knowledge. Profound Conversations will be a moderated discussion with a question and answer segment for listeners to contribute thoughts and seek guidance for current challenges that exist within the family dynamics of our current times.

Show Topics and Highlights

The world is experiencing unprecedented challenges:

• Economics

• Communities

• Family Dynamics

• Mental and Physical Well Being

As a chaplain, a lot of our conversations right now are about self care.

“How are we gonna cope with this? It's not an acute situation anymore. It is getting more chronic. So it's no more like a sprint race. It's like, prepare for this marathon, this long stretch of being exposed.”

Are people turning to their faith? Or are they questioning it?

A lot of hospitals have suspended visitations. How are people coping with not being able to support their loves ones in hospitals?

This is extraordinary time of turbulence, unpredictability, fear, and anxiety.

 It's marvelous to see how the world is overcoming a lot of our barriers to reach out to those who are near us without touching them, or touching them virtually and spiritually.”

“We teach chaplains to be mindful not to go in a room and put a spiritual bandaid on somebody's pain. “

“The world has never had an opportunity like this, to be forced to be with ourselves and to build that relationship with with our closest people and with our God.”

Profound Conversations Executive Producers are the Muslim Life Planning Institute, a national community building organization whose mission is to establish pathways to lifelong learning and healthy communities at the local, national and global level.   MLPN.life

The Profound Conversations podcast is produced by Erika Christie www.ErikaChristie.com

Full Transcript

Linda Howard

Welcome, everyone to our profound conversation and Salaam Alaikum. As Erika mentioned, I am the Chief Compliance Officer and impact officer for m LPI. And today we're going to focus on some best practices for families to continue to thrive and live together in peace and harmony during this time of heightened stress and uncertainty, and our presenters possess a wealth of knowledge in clinical mental health chaplaincy and Islam We have with us chaplain Tara optimal in she is clinical pastoral Education Manager at medstar Washington Hospital Center in Washington, DC. She is an association for clinical pastoral education certified educator. We also have Dr. Farhad. bossy and she's an assistant professor in the Department of Psychiatry at Michigan State University. And as a staff psychiatrist there, she established the Muslim mental health conference, which I think was supposed to be taking place this week.

Dr Farha Abbasi

So I'm glad to still get a chance to get to the mic.

Linda Howard

So we have her here with us. And she is also the managing editor for The Journal of Muslim mental health. And we are also pleased to have with us Mr. Bahari, Abdul Malik, who served as Director of Outreach at the Dar Al hit dra Islamic Islamic Center and he's the first Muslim chaplain at Howard University. And it's the former head of the National Association for Muslim chaplains in higher education. So I'm sure a lot today This will be the first in a series of profound conversation. And I'd like to thank to heart Dr. bossy and Mr. johari for accepting our invitation to be a part of our inaugural profound conversation. We selected today's conversation with the understanding that the world is really experiencing some some unprecedent precedent challenges, that it's, it's facing us in all aspects of our life. It's impacting our economics, our community, our family dynamics, our mental and physical health and well being. And, and everyone's right now is really struggling with kind of where we are and what tomorrow holds. I like to always start with with the question of think about this is where we are folks. And to say that another way what's the state of affairs? So I'm gonna I'll ask her a first To give us your thoughts to her on on where we are as a community where we are, and our family and personal mental wellness, in light of this pandemic that the world is facing.

Tahara Akmal

Thank you, Linda and to your colleagues for inviting me to participate in this very important conversation for not just our community but for the world community right now. Um, one of the things I've been really thinking about in the field of chaplaincy and just in general is impact of a consistent messages and the consistent reality that we're living in. The COVID-19 virus in the crisis has caused high anxiety, high stressors, on families on finances. People are concerned about maintaining their jobs, more at home with families and people are taking off work. Children. So we have a lot of stressors on us. And stress is natural. I mean, I see a dog running towards me and it's barking, I'm scared and I stress that's natural. And then a few minutes that my blood pressure and my heart rate will go back to normal. You know, the natural response is to maintain homeostasis. So I stress because I'm fearful. But anxiety the anxiety that I think our community is experiencing in the world is experiencing right now is over something that we can't see is something we really have no control over. So I think that we are heightened fear fears, we are anxious, fearful and answers are coming in ways where we have to figure out some way know what our what our family's gonna put our self care practices. What's our school cloud? I was saying professionally as a chaplain, and an educator, chaplains. A lot of our conversation Right now are around patient care, our own personal selfcare practices.

Linda Howard

So you know that also a result of the times that we're going through everyone's working at home and so the internet is being stressed. So, so so bear with us as we work through some of these challenges in terms of some of the choppiness in our connections. Dr. bossy what what have you been seeing in terms of in your practice in terms of people's mental health and wellness resulting from maybe the fears of the Coronavirus being locked, being locked in and isolate it? So,

Dr Farha Abbasi

I'm, the new research that has just come out yesterday is calling this a pandemic of mental health. We are seeing this like it's just unbelievable the level of anxiety and stress. I think human beings Generally thrive on predictability. And that sense, predictability gives us a sense of control, which kind of gives us a sense of safety, security. And whenever that sense, activity is threatened, we feel out of control. And that is where our fears and anxieties and this behavior comes out. And you wonder, like when you're president to even a when he acknowledges that the country is going to a mental health crisis, then you wonder like something is happening, right. So I think it is extraordinary time of turbulence, predictability, fear, anxiety, and what we usually see is when a human being on a person, average person is going through this, either you become very, either you turn towards your faith, or you start questioning your faith. So I would really like to bring the Imam in this conversation and say it is. I see both ends in both sides of people turning to faith religion for comfort and resiliency and questioning God. Why is this happening to us for now, because all of us have are at different points in our lives. So even if in our household, you could have somebody right or struggling with health issues, you could have a husband or wife unemployed. You could have a kid who's very young and doesn't know when he's going to go back to school or kid who was applying to professional colleges and don't know now, what's gonna happen or isn't a high level competitive field, where suddenly the predictability of what's gonna happen in 10 days is away from him. Just like you said, you were all supposed to be at Muslim mental health conference and now we are sitting doing this So that's the all the complete change in our expectations predictability in life that has come under question. So, definitely, all of us are feeling that stress. The idea is, how are we gonna cope with it? It's not an acute situation anymore. It is more getting more chronic. So it's no more like a sprint race. It's like, prepare for this marathon, this long stretch of being exposed.

Linda Howard

So, Imam Johari, I think a question was thrown to you.

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

Oh, no.

Linda Howard

By Dr. Abassi. In terms of where are you seeing people? Are they turning to their faith? Or is this where they're actually questioning their faith?

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

Um, first thing, you know, I just want to thank you all for putting this together and we can't have enough forums to have this type of conversation. So so the Muslim life planning really helped. I know that last night there was Muslim wellness Foundation, had a webinar brought in some, some experts talk about what's going on, and ways that people can cope. I know, later on today, tomorrow, many opportunities. And I think the more we will have the opportunity like this together in exchange, I think people's hearts will find a greater degree of tranquility. Last night on the webinar, they took a poll during the webinar talking about COVID-19. And although there were significant levels of stress, anxiety and so on recorded but almost 60% of the people said they felt hopeful. Um, I recognize that you know, if you have a written history Based webinar, you're probably likely to get more religiously grounded people. So it's not surprising that that group would be majority in the hopeful category. But, you know, it's interesting from the Islamic perspective. There are there are now challenges. And that is that I do a lot of interfaith work, as Tara and I have shared in the interfaith space, that if you're in the Jewish tradition, it's okay to be angry with God and Islamic tradition, it is considered to be unacceptable to be angry with God. And therefore it places people in the Muslim context we're asking the big, giant question, why? Why is it happening? How can a law allow this to happen and I'm not happy with decision right now. And so this is I mean this, this becomes a real challenge for people. But for most faith leaders, whatever your tradition is, the Quran tells us, do you think that you will say that you believe and not be tested? That belief is not about just the good times. Belief is also embracing the bat if you're married, marriage is not about, we're lovey w sometimes that you hit up, you hit a rough patch. And if you're really committed to that union and that relationship, then you find new ways of working through it. As a faith leader, I have to say that, I believe everything comes from from God. God is in control of the laws in control. We don't know what Allah knows. The reality is that we actually live like this. Every time single day. We don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow, not leave your house, whether you're going to come back at the end of the day. But we've been so accustomed to having this this sense of okayness. And I think a lot of it for people who live in Western societies or in safe environments. If you live in the mountains in Afghanistan, when you leave to go to the market, there's no guarantee you're coming back home, or you live in Darfur and Sudan. no guarantee if you're gathering firewood. We have been living in this kind of antiseptic bubble, where if we get a headache, we take a pill. If we have something, we can, you know, we have diarrhea, we take a pill, and a lot of places in the world people die from that. And so now we're really experiencing on many levels that kind of experience it Many many people around the world experience every day and we're all in the same boat. So I believe that there's a great opportunity for us even in our suffering to get closer to this reality that is to stay together and be together and know that that that God is in control.

Dr Farha Abbasi

And I would like to add on it I I definitely and we as practicing was that every after every hardship there is ease, but how do you

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

I, I have a modification, okay. With every difficulty is a company by ease, okay, it is not. They they are they come together, come together, exercising. When I feel the pain in my arm. For those of you who exercise, you feel the pain when you're feeling the pain That is when you are building muscle. It doesn't happen like okay, two days later, I build muscle, right when I'm feeling the pain, that is when I'm getting the tearing down of that old and building up the new. So the opinions of one another, not causing effect, something happened now the other one happens later.

Dr Farha Abbasi

Now I was just wondering that at this point when those of us who always turned to prayers and always felt more comfort coming to Islamic centers, attending congregations, and a month of Ramadan is also coming, you guys preparing and anticipating for that that we are not allowed to pray in community or visiting Islamic Center. That is also a big loss to the community right now.

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

But, you know, this is a there is a global reset of affairs. There are some people who So focus that they think that a prayer is something that happens in the mosque. And that the mosque is is a special, holy place for prayer. But in my house, not so much. Right? praying with my family. That's such a big deal. Oh, really? Well, now, the focus is, I should be thinking about praying wherever I am. I should be praying with whomever I'm with. And that for some people, maybe you've had that, that feeling that, you know, there's they're holier than other people because they're in the holy places. They're in Mecca. They're in Medina, or really well now, how holy are you? If you're just staying in your three bedroom house, and you're praying to the one who's in control of everything who hears you and sees you wherever you are. So now it's a reset. You know, I want to remind you When the Quran first started coming to the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. He was secluded in a cave by himself for days upon days just thinking and reflecting, and the Quran came down. And the narration says that he did this as a seclusion as a as a habit, a hallway, we now are faced as a planet with secluding ourselves in our homes, to having a time to reflect. Probably the world has never had an opportunity like this, to be forced to be with ourselves and to build that relationship with with our closest people and with our God. But that's how I see it and Okay, people, you know, I mean, these are things we know them in Ramadan, people like to go there. Every night photography or prayer, but the tradition of the Prophet said, he came the first night and started reading. And people came together. And the second night, people said, Wow, this is something new. And they came and they gathered, and the third night they came. And then they said, Where is he? He didn't come. He said, I'm not coming because if I came again, you would make an obligation on yourselves. He said, I'm praying at home. And so now in that tradition, total we a prayer isn't just something that you do in the mosque, maybe. Mmm, so Roger had said one time in a speech he said he quoted some people's houses, graveyard homes, because they've turned their house into a place. That's not a place of worship. Oh, we all have to turn our homes. Even if we're homeless, into our spaces, where we can seclude ourselves and worship I hope it wasn't too long. No.

Dr Farha Abbasi

I mean, I am sure it has answered many questions but definitely very informative for

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

different Ramadan for sure. Huh? How do you you know, like, what do you do to break for us if you'd like to get together and break fast together? For us who lives in high tech world, I'm sure there's going to be some hangout if talks and they wait for the other one. And then everybody breaks their fast while they're watching the screen. Or people who have that technology. I'm sure that we will create ways of gathering because we gathered This is such an important part of our religious tradition. Touching handshaking, hugging, kissing, prostrating with your face in the same place other people They face, the Udo station where people's blood body fluids are flying across the giant. All those things are off off limits. people the people that are Miss have been in those those washrooms where there's water everywhere. Wait about it. Ah, man, we really had

Dr Farha Abbasi

the idea of extending help and being supportive to the community doesn't. So that's a good point that if God is everywhere, and you can worship God in any moment, anytime, any place, then you can serve humanity in the same spirit as well.

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

you know, a lot of times, Doc where are you from originally?

Dr Farha Abbasi

I'm from Pakistan.

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

Now, what I'm finding a lot of times in Ramadan, or the holiday do eat or whatever, people will send their charity back to Pakistan or back to Afghanistan. Well, I have news for you now. Now, people are like, I can't send my I need to think about my next door neighbor. Because if I don't provide for the poor people near me, they they become angry Riot and do other things. So the whole I really think unconsciously, to either miskeen to feed the needy, first, the one who's near us, or you're finding so many programs. And I think there are programs that Muslims are doing now that weren't doing before to feed their hungry neighbor. And so, it's marvelous to see how the world is overcoming a lot of our barriers to reach out to those who are near us without touching them

Dr Farha Abbasi

or touching them virtually and spiritually.

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

Yes, yes, indeed. It's

Linda Howard

Tahara you are in the hospital setting. And I know for a lot of hospitals, they've actually suspended any kind of visitation for people to visit. And that is definitely a time where, where people are looking to have that support and family and friends coming through. How have you seen an impact there?

Tahara Akmal

How do I say this? I don't speak on behalf of my employer. I just have to be clear about that. I'm speaking on experiences, just in general with chaplaincy, that's happening a lot across the country where whatever To say is connected to something man Joe said earlier he was talking about this webinar that he was on and that I think he said 60% of the participants said they felt hopeful. So our role as chaplains is to show up for people that what's meaningful for, you know, what they're what they would be doing, if they weren't here and so forth. So I'd be very curious about that. 60% that I'm holding them to heart. What are they hopeful for? Because in a hospital setting, sometimes for less pain that I don't get out of the hospital and time to go to my daughter's wedding or whatever. So I think hope is something that was something that we all have. And it's gonna look different for everyone. Oh, yeah. Oh, I was curious. You said people are hopeful and I was thinking Oh, are they hopeful that this is over Two weeks we will survive this, you know, so I was just thinking about all the things that we survived spective

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

I will tell you now, if you start thinking about all the different kind of hopeless, you're going to have anxiety. What what kind of hopeful are they having?

Tahara Akmal

Oh my god, maybe they're hopeful about that anxiety. You know, it's it's our truth. Right? We teach chaplains is Be mindful not to go in a room and put a spiritual bandaid on somebody's pain. Oh, no. I'd like to I'm not saying you're doing that. But I'm just saying How beautiful are the spaces where we can say, Hey, I'm anxious around your heart. Oh, gosh, Linda, I'm so scared. I hope you know

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

what i but i think this is an excellent point to her which is for people who are talking to other people who are anxious not to Try the paper over their anxiety. Yes, well, you, you you overreacting, right? Heck, I'm overreacting. Right? You know how many people died? It's I'm not overreacting. I don't you. I hear you. Right. I under, I understand what you're saying, I can't say I understand everything you're going through, but I understand what you're saying. And, and I, I get that that feeling resonates from you. I got that rather than to say and by the way, I got an email from the former ambassador of South Africa to USC, but he said he got some fake crazy faith leaders out there telling people Oh, don't worry about it. Everything is in the hands of God. And if you're gonna live, you're gonna live and if you're gonna die, I'm like your array. What are you talking about? Right. We have to be spiritually grounded enough to say that we are obligated to take precautions and to the degree that we take precautions and do supposed to do, and we turn the other part over to God. And we're hopeful that whatever comes out of it, God will be satisfied with us. I hope so. But I'm not saying you're going to live or die. But this idea that we meet people in chaplaincy, or in our faith work as friends and neighbors, right? Not somebody judging someone else saying, you know, you should look on the bright side.

Dr Farha Abbasi

I also understand what Tahara is saying because just today I had a patient. She's a young female who has been given six months or so of atrial carcinoma and kind of fever. Planning and of life for release for her and we were talking about how she should avail every day travel and do some meaningful things that she has not been able to do in her life and then this virus happens. So, it is it becomes very challenging at moments like that to, like you said, put a bandaid or say believe this is better for you or there is some and hopeful ending to it. So yes, it's a very big struggle if you are a physician or are working in hospital settings, to it is important piece of their healing and survival or endurance, or getting through everyday to bring hope to maybe it's pharmacist spirituality or religion, but it becomes harder. It's Biggest challenge definitely.

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

And and now it's not just the people who have six months to live who have that kind of anxiety. It's people who living every day wondering tomorrow if if, if they touch a letter that comes in the mail. Is that a death sentence? So I mean, we we have as as a planet, we've never experienced this before.

Dr Farha Abbasi

Sense of vulnerability,

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

I wonder, those soldiers who are on the field of battle right now I wonder what they're doing? Are they saying hey, I don't want to go go out today and kill people. Because I don't want to get infected and die. So I think I'm just gonna stay in my barracks and eat whatever regular food we have. And just just practice some peace. I know the China because the factories are closed, the air is getting cleaner. Rivers are getting pure. So I, you know, I'm not saying it's all rosy but there are rainbows in after this rain.

Dr Farha Abbasi

Silver Linings.

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

Yeah.

Linda Howard

What are some of the questions that I've heard from people is just the challenges. I mean, we think about walking around in our communities and wanting to be around our families, but some people are actually struggling with that challenge of having to be with their families. That's a reality because that's a new dynamic is a new dynamic when you say everyone has to work from home and the children have to stay home as well. And you now have a husband and wife who are now in the same space, trying to get their separate corners to work from home with the children or being home. as well. So

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

Linda, I did this is one of the points I thought about before I spoke I was on a conference call earlier meeting with some people. And I asked the mom about the son, she said, I haven't seen him in two days, they live in the same house that we really need to be able to give everybody even though we're living in quarters, sometimes their own space, because we're not used to being this close to each other, right all the time. And it may seem strange, especially the parents, you know, saying, you know, where are you what are you doing? Like, Hey, I'm used to being in school like all day without seeing you right? Now, you know, give me my space. I just want to sit in my corner and read or do whatever I'm, whatever I'm doing. So I think you're right for those who are blessed to have enough space or to try to work to create an have space emotional as well as physical space while we're all crammed together.

Dr Farha Abbasi

So, Linda what I how I'm looking at it is this is a time where I'm seeing the bad and the ugly Hmm. So on one hand if the natural goodness is coming out the natural ugliness is coming out too. We are seeing an increase in rate of domestic and a rate increase and divorces are rate of even if you have seen the 200% increase in sales. Yeah. Which is all very concerning as mental health provider for me, because when you are cooked up all the problems that you had been avoiding, maybe it can be marital or with your children or your in laws or extended families. They We're living with there was a space like we had that space, we could walk away from situations. And right now you don't have the luxury of walking out of the house on leaving for job. So that's when leaving for job and so right now it is meant that we have to recalibrate and when I say recalibrate, we have to really stop those gender roles have to be gotten away from the expect then that the wife wife's responsibility to cook and take care of the kids when husband has come back tired or there might be wife's work and husbands are helping. So that's to be really reconsider this box. Yeah.

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

In the reset, it might be some relearning, which is, as I understand the Prophet Muhammad He used to help with household chores, right, but that he used to make his own clothes. Maybe they forgot their names, he probably cooked some food too. So it's now time in that reset that you're talking about. But people don't really reset what was the real traditions in our faith and not the ones we made up from our cultures. Right?

Dr Farha Abbasi

And going from that also, one important piece has been missing. How this frustration is affecting each one of us. So it can come out in form of irritability, mild anger, but some times it's coming out in aggression, right. And sometimes it comes towards the vulnerable in the house. It can be your children. It can be Spock's wife or it can be your older pair, two dozen respectful to so it is very important right now to be aware of how this is us how it's impacting our others around us and to be aware of our anger, anger, frustration, and how we are expressed.

Linda Howard

Now, are there some tips that and I know sometimes this is not a simple thing to just say okay, what can you do? But are there some things that you can share? He any either one of you can share that understanding that this is the reality when I say this is where we are folks, this is the reality we are now in a lot of times on lockdown in the house, with our family members experiencing the frustration, is there things that we can do that help us cope with that situation? Where you know, since since I'm the Imam in the group, The the Quran itself says that it is a shift. It is a healing

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

you know, maybe Christians call it they call the Bible the Good Book. Maybe it's time people spend more time in the Good Book. Because in that you there is a reflection. And you know, um, you know, maybe somebody when I grew up Christian and one of the things I used to find threatening about the Quran, I could say that right unsettling about the Quran is its Bashir and wonder there. It's a good news and it's a warning and it oscillates between the these two things, you know, so it's when you sit when you're reading the Quran, you're always getting this good news, bad Good news, bad news this comes in then that comes. And for people who are going through things, it's a good reminder that there are good times and bad times that there's a blessing it and there's a punishment now that there's opportunities within their challenges. So, for people in meaning, I'm not saying this in a ritualistic way, but but in an introspective way to spend more time with the Quran. This is the month of Shaban for people to increase their fasting. I discovered it or you might be in trouble when you're fasting. You still don't have as much energy as we used to have. So you act, you act and you sleep more.

So I'm just telling you on the real, this is a month that Prophet Mohammed he never fasted before. In any other month, in the month of Ramadan that he did in this for people to think about ways in which they can do something to help someone else. And it's challenging because it's not like the way you used to be able to help people before. What is it that I can do to help in this crisis in the way that I can. My daughter, one of two of my daughters are hunkered down at Murray, middle daughter. And they started sewing, masks.

And so my wife said, Oh, that's great. You guys can can sell them. And they were like, We don't want to give them away. I see that you just raised like, they, they, they wanted to figure out something that they can do. And quite often, I think it's that feeling that emptiness This can really help people through times when they feel powerless.

Dr Farha Abbasi

Yes, mental health provider, I can tell you a few things. So that space when we talk about the space, it's taken as a lot of time taken as a goal space, but there can also be a mental space to be created. Not all of us are living in big houses, that our house even if you do not have space to walk away from situation you always can go. So if you cannot go outside go outside kind of thing. create that space. It will come with self awareness. It will come with self discipline. So you have create that space between your so it could be that you are getting frustrated and angry because you you might be unemployed right now. Or you might be coming sat out as a provider or as the main provider in the house that how am I gonna manage it long term, but it can come out as some an angry comment, or hitting or getting angry or throwing stuff. So being aware of that emotion how those emotions affect your feelings and your behavior. That let me let me if I may. And I'll ask your your professional advice. I have shared with some couples that especially when when these these tensions start first to identify.

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

And I'm not I'm not blaming and not blaming the victim, but triggers that affect the other person that you live with. Other words, whether it's the husband Saying something hurtful to the wife, or vice versa, that you be sensitive to the fact that someone is triggering you, or that you are about triggering someone.

Dr Farha Abbasi

Right? Self kindness,

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

and the other is had one couple and I and the wife said, well, when, when we, it starts ramping up, I go in the bathroom and close the door. And I said, Look, let's come up with an agreement that there's a safe space.

That that is not the bathroom. That it's it's the easy chair by the window. Right? When we're having a difficulty. Either one of us go and sit in that chair. And if I sit in that chair, that means the conversation canister. What do you think?

Dr Farha Abbasi

Definitely excellent strategy. It could be a space identity. Different space, it can be identified word that or even some, some couples, we tell them to use color coding, like, Oh, this is getting into this into serious area. So, but I also always wanna. So there's always because it takes two to tango, right? But it's important that things don't from outside things flow from inside out. Right? So I think individually we become aware of what our triggers are, how we behave. And then once we identify our buttons we get identified and others. And always another thing is, don't try to have a conversation in the heat. Things have to be very calm and cool down like you know when you're raising I always teach you that you want to train, catch them, doing good So if you want to make a point or want a conversation, or somewhere you have to both be in a good mood or be in a peaceful to have a conversation. A heating up. The best thing is to detangle

Linda Howard

Yeah, I'm sorry.

Dr Farha Abbasi

Go ahead. Go ahead.

Linda Howard

We have about 10 minutes left and I want to make sure those that are on the call have an opportunity to ask your questions.

Yes. Um, oh, do we? Erika asked if anyone has any questions, I guess they can signal to Erica. Erica. I'll turn it over and maybe you can just kind of guide the questions. If there's any questions from anyone.

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

I got a I got a wow question. And it came it came to me directly, right. And it says, if, if a husband has two wives How do you handle the issues of social distancing? And I actually, I don't know, when probably people have to, you know, I mean, it's it, I don't think is much different than if my elderly parents lived around the corner. And I have an obligation to make sure that they're okay. Then I have to go visit them. I cook for them, I do whatever and then I come back to the other house that I live in. I don't think it's really any different. Whether whatever your your family makeup is. So that That's sort of my my comment for the polygyny question.

Linda Howard

Erika, do we have any other questions? Or

Erika Christie

If anybody has a question, you can go ahead and raise your hand, which is a function inside the webinar. I haven't seen any yet. Oh, so Linda, do you have a question for anybody? To actually start off the q&a?

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

I have something for Linda Linda. So you see you nobody asked you any question. I recently went to Mecca a few months ago.

Linda Howard

Yes.

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

Now that I mean you got in under the wire. I know Muslims around the world are wishing they go. How do you feel?

Linda Howard

Well, one I feel extremely blessed that I dig in and up do the wire I came back and the net very next week. I was suspended. And so it was definitely right under the wire. And it was it was interesting to really see I experienced the the beauty of the closeness that you were really shoulder to shoulder there was no separation. And it was Muslims from all over the world and just returning from all over the world with germs from all over the world.

And then there was no way to avoid that. Because you're in such close proximity everyone is praying together. As you mentioned earlier, me mom tahari, your, your face is hitting the same route that everyone else has faced and hit so I felt I felt the blessing of being able to be that close but it also led me in looking at this pandemic. Let me also know that there's a lot of challenges. closeness and and i Hurley

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

I think it's a miracle that every year on hij that we don't have a pandemic breakout outbreak every year. It's mica and that way is a miracle. I'm happy to know that they they are always listed about sanitizing the Kaabah around the comments, you know how I'm always this the cleaning, mopping. And now you can really see how critical that that prophylactic cleaning that they were doing is but at the same time they're wise enough to shut down this amazing, amazing house of worship. And I know many people are really feeling it. Amanda Costco told me he's Emotionally hurt? Because not not because he's going. But because the Kaaba is not accessible to 2 billion of us.

Linda Howard

Yeah. There's one question here it says the mom has been clear about what hopes people learn from the experience. What do the other panelists wish people would come away from this experience with?

Dr Farha Abbasi

I think for myself, I can summarize it like in the book and war and peace it says it's, it was the best of the times and it was the worst of the means.

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

So is this was Tale of Two Cities.

Dr Farha Abbasi

A Tale of Two Cities. Sorry, love to cities was tales of Tale of Two Cities. Imam, you got me. But the point I was making is that it's on On each one of us, it's gonna be a matter of perspective it is gonna be, we will have to walk away from the acute mindset of it and think of it in the long term, and go back to creating that structure back in our lives a choice that people intentionally have to make every day. That isn't gonna be a good time or a bad time. And we can do that by going beyond our own insight, thinking of others, to others, thinking of ways how we continue to do this community work, how we continue to stay connection with our loved ones, and extended families and friends. This can be a good opportunity in Chinese the word for crisis words. So it is crisis and opportunity that goes together. So pre crisis there Fortunately, and this is our opportunity to find our humanity and to grow in this moment. I mean, thank you.

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

I just want to reiterate Well, well, two hours getting a theme together. There are still some some folks, mosques that are open. And people who are trying to get in the mosque, there is a, there's some fundamental principles that I think sometimes people miss and that is that the reduction of harm is better than the acquisition of benefit. This is a this is a as a maximum, right? It is, it is better to reduce harm then to get the reward, the care of of worshiping in the mosque. And so, it is really although people can have a right to have a difference of opinion. I actually think in this case, They just long they're putting themselves. There was a man he came a preacher who came to the Gambia from Senegal, he, he traveled from Bangladesh. When he arrived in the Gambia, he was already sick, died from Corona in the Gambia, after speaking and in a congregational setting. I told him I said, it's not Islamic rule, but believe me, he should have been stoned to death because he knew he was sick. And he, he came into an area where there was no Corona and infected people. This is not Islam. This is not right. And people who are doing this, I got messages from different parts of the world. Talking about the moms that are not waking up and telling people this, the prophet alayhi wa sallam told us about this You're in, if you're in a plague area, stay where you are. And if you are not in that area don't go to where the plague is. Right. And this I mean, that this is not just common sense, it's Islamic sense. And people need to look at what is the better reward. I denied myself going to the mosque, and Allah is going to reward me for all of the blessings of the people that are protected from becoming sick. It's a kind of reverse blessing. I'm not doing something so that Allah will reward me.

Linda Howard

Thank you where we are. We're at the five o'clock at cheese 501. But I this has been a really, really interesting discussion and I'm hoping that we'll be able to get all of you back again. And I'm going to before we close, I want to throw out a thought to pick for you to begin to think about maybe a topic for One of our next discussions, let's look at the post traumatic pandemic syndrome. I'll say that again, the post traumatic pandemic, pandemic Central.

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

You thinking way ahead, Oh, we got a long road to hoe sister.

Linda Howard

and this, but this is where we need to be right now. Not up, you know, I started out by saying, this is where we are. Right? We also need to think about this is where we will be, oh, this is our reality and, and thinking about that, I just want to put that thought out there. So about it, and we can come back again. So you see, I gave you some time to think about it.

Dr Farha Abbasi

thank you so much. Thank you.

Linda Howard

Thanks everyone. For Joining us and for the our profound conversation lists for joining us today and sharing your thoughts that we hope was helpful. For those of you that were on the call. It was certainly helpful for me to hear this discussion. Thank you.

Imam Johari Abdul Malik

There's no life and there's no power except God.

Thank you.

Dr Farha Abbasi

Thank you.