Towards Transforming Social-Political-Economic Realities in America 

With their history of forced immigration to the United States (US), African Americans were de-cultured and dehumanized, their misery treated as ‘natural’ and benign. Today, they are an important minority in a nation with a singular degree of world influence. Much of the country’s vitality, especially its contemporary cultural life, can be credited to African Americans, but racism remains a definitive and stark reality. 

A critical aspect of the racism that African Americans face is a continuing geographic segregation in many parts of the US, a legacy of ‘Jim Crow’ laws enacted in the South after the Civil War, as well as discriminatory attitudes right across the country including the so-called ‘white flight’ from urban areas to suburbs after the Second World War.

Join our host Linda Howard and our Profound Conversationalists Hassan Ali El-Amin, Dr. Charles Lewis, and Dayvon Love.

Topics and Highlights

As people of African Descent it is important for us to have an Ecosystem of Institutions that are self sufficient and self sustaining that can be containers for the transfer of wealth we’re asking for.

“Wealth is generational.”

The U.S. Government not only needs to stop mistreating its African Americans, but it needs to build all of us up in order to build up the entire country.

As African Americans we have come a long way, but we are still not where we want to be.

In many situations, life for African Americans has gotten worse not better.

Harriet Tubman could have freed more people but she struggled to convince some that they actually were slaves.

Advocacy is sometimes done by the same people who are hurting the community.

Profound Conversations Executive Producers are the Muslim Life Planning Institute, a national community building organization whose mission is to establish pathways to lifelong learning and healthy communities at the local, national and global level.   

MLPN.life

The Profound Conversations podcast is produced by Erika Christie 

ErikaChristie.com

Full Transcript

Erika Christie

Welcome to Profound Conversations, a dynamic broadcast platform focused on building healthy communities. content for programming is developed through our interests and involvement in education, economic development, culture, and governance. Profound Conversations is a listening and discussion space, which brings thought leaders into a conversation to address the vexing challenges of our times. In an ever evolving world. New ideas and transformative ways of being are the lights at the end of the tunnel. Please join us as we participate in critical and Profound Conversations impacting humanity.

Linda Howard

Welcome, everyone, to another episode of Profound Conversations. Today, we're going to be examining an issue related to reparations. And we'll take a look at hr 40. And just to give you a little bit of background before we have our Profound Conversations list, jump into this dialogue today. HR 40, was introduced in order to request that the issue of reparations be studied. And since the abolishment of slavery, there has been a number of things that have occurred in succession and overlap, that has resulted in the continued discrimination of African Americans. We've had. We've had sharecropping. We've had Jim Crow laws. There's been redlining, there's been discrimination in education. We've experienced mass incarceration there. And I don't know whether or not my numbers are up to date. But the numbers that I have is, is around a million African Americans that are incarcerated, are under unemployment rate, African American unemployment rates, pre co COVID-19 was twice that of white America. And it's got in it has gotten worse. We also represent and again, pre COVID-19, we have 116 of the wealth of white Americans. So what we have seen that sense, the abolishment of slavery, when we didn't get our 40 acres and a mule, as promised, since that time, we have seen situations actually worse. For African Americans, it has not been getting better. And so this is a really critical issue, examining hr 40. And really taking a look at this whole issue of reparations. But before we jump into the issue of reparations, I want us I want to introduce our Profound Conversations, so that they can help kind of set the stage for where we are as African Americans to debt. What is the state of affairs, and we have with us, Dayvon Love, and Dayvon is Baltimore base. And he is with a political organization and the Director of Public Policy for Leaders of a Beautiful Struggle. Also, we have with us, Dr. Charles Lewis, and he is the director of Congressional Research Institute for Social Work and policy. So I set the stage for you lay the foundation. All the while I was talking, they Dayvon was nodding his head. So I'm gonna ask the Dayvon jump right in there and talk to us about where are we now as African Americans? What's the state of affairs and tell us how that relates to the work that you do?

Dayvon Love

So first of all, I just want to thank you all for the opportunity to be on this platform to have this conversation. And, I mean, your opening, as far as I'm concerned, is spot on in terms of I think, I think one of the things that mainstream popular culture and policy spaces when folks have conversations about chattel slavery, it is often talked about too much in in moral terms. And while that's important In what you laid out are the is the economic residues of chattel slavery. One of the ways that I think it's best to describe it is that, you know, chattel slavery was a 246 year Headstart, for wealth accumulation of folks of European descent, to build the kind of civic and political institutions to create a world dominated by systems that they control. And the only way to address that is to, to engage policies that reverse the political economy of white supremacy that is fundamentally rooted in the looting and pillaging of the ability to engage in wealth acquisition activity that is central to building a foundation for developing institutions that can be responsive to the needs of our community. And I think a lot of times, given the messages we see in popular culture, I think there is the extent to which there are significant socio economic disadvantages that black folks experiencing this country is, is severely understated, right, so you said it, I mean, an average white family has 16 times the wealth of an average black family. You know, I remember being an intern at a policy organization, you know, years ago that study, Maryland in particular. And a lot of the same data, unemployment three times higher for black folks and white folks in Baltimore City. One of the, you know, they said that, because Maryland, you know, has a, you know, therapists population is black. And they looked at zip codes with the same socio economic profile, but one majority, black majority white, and in the majority, black zip codes, property values are assessed at only 75% of that, and white zip codes for the same socio economic profile. You know, one of the most startling statistics that I remember looking at is that 47% of the wealth created, or 40%, of the income of white folks in Maryland, was generated off of assets that they own. Whereas for black people is only 11% of our income was generated from assets that we own. So I think all of those things create a picture that makes the study of reparations important, because reparations, at least the way I see it, it's not just an abstract exercise, you know, helping to reconcile the sins of america. It's a very prep, it's a demand that I think is essential for forgiving the investment in the institutions that are necessary, and helping to reverse the damage that has been done by chattel slavery, Jim Crow, and all the other innovations of white supremacy.

Linda Howard

Dr. Lewis jumpin?

Dr. Charles Lewis

Well, yeah, I agree with everything that's been said, so far, in terms of where we, where we find ourselves as African Americans in the United States in the 21st century. As they Vaughn has said, It's been a long process, you have to get to where we're at, obviously, where we are, is not where we need to be. And there has been a systematic effort plan. It's not even a plan as much as it's, it's, it's it's intrinsic in our, in our and not in our country in the sense that it goes on without anybody having to do it. It you know, the the fact that white people have more assets, that market and all that good stuff. That's a done deal. And so therefore, the accumulation of wealth that comes with that. It's always it's just going to be it will just continue until something has something is done about it. And so, so I I think that the, the, the, the importance of this bill and his hr 40 is to take some cases inserted time and effort to try to figure out how how, how do we begin to untie and undo some of the racist forces and systems that that are in place. Now. It's much, it's much easier said than done. I there's so many different places, that has to be addressed in terms of education and health care, and, and, and the workforce, you know, all of these things have to be addressed. And there's no real simple solution to any of this. But I think at the end of the day, it it will be a an idea that really propels us to the next point in time. And that idea is that this there's a couple of ideas. i There's an idea that is just unfair, that, you know, likes us and not being mistreated. And then, but it is to the advantage of the United States. I don't have to stop mistreating us. But to build on, and one of the build up type.

Linda Howard

Now, one of the things I noticed with the bill, one is to examine the issue around around reparations, but is also to look at an issue around the policy. So it's two components of it. One is the economic kind of addressed economics, and then also the apology to to African Americans. Do you think that an apology is necessary and that it has any benefits?

Dayvon Love

You know, I think I think one of the fundamental questions that that which you raise poses is, what is black people's relationship to the project enterprise of the United States of America. And one of the things that I'm very clear about is that the Middle Passage, slave trade of IFA was an unprovoked act of war against peoples of African descent, and unprovoked war, not just on us as a physical people. But one, as a metaphysical attack on black people that our very existence in history was a part was was a part of the attack that levied against us. I say all that to say that, I think there's some people that still have hope in the project of America, delivering justice to black people. And, as Derek Bell ethnic has said, best, racism is a permanent aspect of American society. It's not an aberration, it's not a mistake, it's not a flaw. It's central to the various mechanisms by which this society operates. So in terms of an apology, I just think that it an apology, I think, assumes that we expect anything different. And I'm much more interested in getting back with alter, as opposed to having having the United States apologize for doing what is natural of it. And I just think it's important that recognition, because I think, depending on your answer to this question about the role, or the relationship like we had with this enterprise, because the United States, it determines the kinds of advocacy that we do. And I feel like that there's too much conversation around folks asking this the society to recognize the humanity of black people. And I guess I'm just exhausted by that. I'd rather just build the institutions for us to be able to take care of ourselves and project the images that we want of ourselves, as opposed of asking the society to recognize us, you know, in a way that had never had and I just don't think ever will.

Linda Howard

Yeah, one of the one of the things when I think about this issue of reparations, that discussion gets to the economics of it. I think about that we've had times History. Despite all the forces that are designed to oppress people of African descent, we have managed to thrive. And you haven't you have, you know, one of the most historical events was Black Wall Street. So we had, we had an area that was thriving economically. And it received the attack of America, Berg downs, people lost their homes, people lost their lives. And if we just fast forward, and I know, our guests today are both based in in Berlin, and we just fast forward and look at what is even occurred. We have Prince George's County, for instance, which was one of the wealthiest counties and was heavily populated by African Americans that were then subjected to predatory lending. And so even those that acquired home, then through predatory lending practices, lost those homes. So when we're when we're talking about these issues around economics, and what's old, what else needs to be put in place to ensure that even when we receive it, that we're able to retain?

Dr. Charles Lewis

Well, unfortunately, we have to rely on the government to do his job. And that is to protect us like they protect any other American. Okay. The forces that that destroyed Tulsa. We go, we look at reconstruction, and all the lessons that we learned about how African Americans made significant progress in short amount of time. But all but all of it was wiped away, because the government abdicated its responsibility to protect us as citizens. Now. I can't I'm I don't know how we could say, well, we don't need the government. Unfortunately, we do. And so I think that we need to be a we need to be aggressive and fighting for those rights that we we do that we we we have that whether or not we are able to exercise them. Within that, within that within the political arena.

Dayvon Love

Yeah, I agree. If I can add to that. I agree. I think I would say two things. I would say. Certainly, with Dr. Lewis just said, I think one of the things that is very important. I understand that issue reparations as a as an issue of public policy. Right. So it's an issue where it requires, you know, some understanding and muscle to be able to navigate the kind of legislative processes necessary. And the mechanisms of government that will be necessary to operationalize such a policy. I would say the other thing that's important, is, I think, as people of African descent, it's important for us to have an ecosystem of institutions that are self sufficient and self sustaining. That can be the containers for the transfer of wealth that we're asking for. Because one of my concerns, I've sticks out that, you know, now that reparations has gotten more popular. There are a variety of scholars who have made different kinds of arguments for reparations, right? So you have folks like, you know, William Daredi, of Duke, Derek Hamilton. You know, lots of folks that I think make good sound social science arguments around the argument for reparations. But when it comes to the question of how to operationalize the policy itself, it is my concern that if we don't also focus on building the kind of ecosystem of institutions that black people collectively own control and operate, then we will remain in a position In a relative dependence on larger societies benevolence, in order to sustain ourselves and our livelihoods. And so I think it's I think that part is going to be very important. And I think it's going to require investment in that work, because that caught that. That's the kind of work that systems creation work. That is not the work that most people see. It's not the sexy part of making things happen. But it takes a lot of time and energy. And I think significant investment in building that infrastructure, I think is necessary for reparations to really have a significant impact on our community.

Linda Howard

You have an interesting perspective on the benefit of having an organization that is not a 501 C three. And I think that kind of goes to what you were talking about in terms of having these institutions that are self sustaining, and not dependent on forces that may not have our best interests. So can you talk a little bit about that about your organization and kind of your philosophy around that?

Dayvon Love

Absolutely. So me, and my colleagues were fortunate to be kind of intellectually intellectually incubated in a space that isn't formed by, you know, black radical tradition. You know, and as a result in the activity of policy to be many of us come out of the activity of policy to be for folks who are not familiar policy to base the most rigorous form of academic debate that exists, and many of the people that come out of the activity, and making may end up working in major public policy institutions, you know, think tanks that essentially set the agenda for what lawmakers do. And Karl Rove was a policy to beta. You know, Rumsfeld, like people who have had very powerful the public policy arena, we came into the activity, extending an intellectual Academic Innovation activity, challenging the way that white supremacy and racism are part and parcel of that research methodology, and policy approaches to the activity. And we were successful doing that, after we were finished with the activity, we found an organization because we wanted to do that public policy advocacy work from kind of a, you know, Pan African, this, you know, black self determination, focus perspective in the public policy arena. Because we saw that in the Baltimore landscape that that was solely absent that many of the organizations advocating for policy, were not organizations over from our community, we were clear that if we were as a 501, C three, a nonprofit organization, that we would be largely dependent on philanthropy. And philanthropy historically, has had an interest in putting forward versions of advocacy for black people that render us dependent on their institutions, and see black people primarily as recipients of social services. And not that that's bad, but to see us solely as recipients of social services. And not as a people that can build the institutions were our own thriving and self sustaining. We were clear that philanthropy was not going to fund an organization that would challenge that overarching, dominant paradigm. And so we're an LLC. And then we have kind of a social entrepreneurship approach to sustaining ourselves, which requires us to be able to meet the needs of our community, and to be able to so we have what are called Community sustainers. So at right now, we're at about 600 people or so who give us money once a month, that support our work, that are, you know, mostly from our community. And that's important, because the things we get to say and deal with public policy spaces that other people can't say, because their funding would be impacted by and that's why I'm so to your point. That's why I'm so insistent about the importance of building like self sustaining institutions, and an ecosystem of institutions. Because when you look, for instance, at the human social service sector, right, public health, education, social work, you know, there's a emerging recognition of the ineptitudes of these traditional of the traditional approaches to these disciplines, that are rooted in the fact that many of them don't have any regard for the technologies of human service that come out of African people's bodies of work. But these institutions are, their business model is profiteering off of black suffering, and those who struggle against it within those institutions often marginalized. And so I just say all that to say that I think the My perspective on reparations and the importance of how the wealth is transferred and how we hold on to it is essential. Because what I don't want is an environment where your traditional big box white nonprofit, traditional social welfare, bureaucrats are the ones that are administering services to our community that perpetuate You know, notions of our hand pathology that keep our community, you know, continually dependent. And so that's, that's really, that that helps to really grab my perspective.

Linda Howard

I mean, something as simple as black owned banks? We don't I don't know the numbers offhand. I don't know if either one of you do, but I know we don't have that many of them around the country. So if you start even talking about the transferring of wealth, where does it end up? It doesn't end up in, in black institutions. Cuz we don't have enough of them around the country. Even nor do we have representation in the, you know, leadership positions,

Dayvon Love

and the resources to sustain the ones we have. Right. You know, I think that's really key. Like, I think we have institutions, but they're competing against institutions that have way bigger budgets, you know, just a lot more resources.

Linda Howard

Dr. Lewis than your organization, are you doing anything around the advocacy around on HR 40 or reparations?

Dr. Charles Lewis

Well, I think I'm not not not specifically to, to that particular bill, but I will definitely get behind it. And should the Democrats be successful in regaining the Senate and increases the chance of passing? You know, so we got to develop a strategy to get across the finish line? Yeah, that's what I mean, you haven't worked on the Hill. I mean, that's the bottom line, right, you could have, you could have another bill introduced. And this bill has 158. co sponsors, which is normally enough to get it to the floor of the House logo. So I don't, I don't doubt that it will, but given the time that that were ran in, and pressure that many of the legislature to legislators are under, to, you know, to walk, walk, not just talk talk, so they got to do something. And this is, this is one of the things they can do, but we have to make them do it. Just like when when Johnson consumed one king names introduced the the get that built, get the Civil Rights Bill introduced. Tell one's King, you know, you got to make me do it. Right. Meaning that I can't do it. Unless, you know, unless, unless the pressure comes to bear on getting it done, which is what, which was what just was, was beyond just his ability, you just couldn't walk into the bathroom bill. Right. So and we had a social worker in there to Davonne William young, Jr. was at the table with Martin King and, and, and Lyndon Johnson to get those bills passed. And William Young. His piece of that was, he had a relationship with a lot of the corporate leaders. And he took a lot of heat for that, too, you know, because he was talking to me, but because of his relationship with those guys, they were able to get the build test last. So, you know, what, I agree with everything. Davonne thing, right, but it's not like you've never heard the schema. Right? We've been saying this for a long time. And it's true, and it hasn't is no is no less true now than it was back in the day when other people were saying it. When the boys was saying and everybody Yeah, we do. We need to pay attention to our institutions, and value them and build them but still we are in we're in this country. i We are affected by this country. And there's no way we can really separate ourselves from that. And, you know, we could talk about how much we should be rendering up on Caesar. But the thing is, we pay a lot of taxes. Okay, all of us as a and we should get we should get our you know, our return on those taxes. I'm sorry, you know, we should be you know, we got to demand is one area of reparations that about a lot is his education. I that one way to undo the damage that has been done to our people all the time, but the failure to educate us and it wasn't deliberate, you know, decision not to educate black people. It was a crime in the south to teach black kids a slave or black person read, you know, so this is this is this has been an extenuation of that whole idea. cottagey Woodson, Miseducation of Nero. So what I'm saying is that we got to, we got to have a system to educate our kids. I mean, all of them, not just that just a few go to charter school, that we we build charter schools, and that's a good thing. But we're not going to educate the masses of kids, just to chance. So I'm saying we have to demand changes, alright, one change, we have to have this education as finance in this country. Because if we continue to finance education in property taxes, then you know, what, we're always going to have an unequal and an unfair system.

Dayvon Love

So if I can add, I mean, so I will say a couple of things. One is that, that, you know, I agree, and I think, and I don't know, if there's perceived tension between the idea that we have, as a community, institutions that anchor our civic, political, political and economic activity, while simultaneously navigate being the current systems that impact our lives, right, like a lot of the work that lbs does, we do a lot of work around, like criminal justice advocacy. So we were involved in, you know, dressing the pretrial system, and making it so that instead of, you know, when folks are charged for a crime, instead of having to pay bills, they can't afford, like, required that, you know, the Court of Appeals requiring that, that commissioners record exhaust all non financial conditions for release before making someone pay a bill. And if they have to pay a bill, a bill they can afford, you know, things around, you know, community oversight or law enforcement. So I think those things I think, are complementary to each other. And, you know, even in even in the to the point about education, that is very important for us to be involved in policy as it relates to how education is administered. I guess the only thing I would add, and this is one of the conventions that I find myself in and having conversations about this is that I Maryland is a is a very democratic state, like it's a we have, we have a Democratic Party supermajority in our state legislature, and a very big public sector. So the kind of narrative about Maryland is that it's a very progressive state. Right. And but a part of what happens is that progressives while advocating on issues around socio economic inequalities, many of the institutions that get get tasked with operationalizing, the programs that actually serve our communities, and many respects, the architects of that are folks that engage in the humanization of black people. And one of my major concerns even about the nature of how the kind of mainstream ed reform movement is situated currently, it's a mostly white LED movement, that when you talk about the actual expertise around human socialization, of children of African descent, in this particular context, many of the kind of mainstream leaders of the reform movement are folks that have no understanding, no idea about the particulars, that's in terms of what's necessary to create an educational experience that will actually be liberatory, for the young people that come through many of these institutions. And so I think, a part of, at least for me, when I think of reparations, providing the resources so that we can put in place, thought leadership that can sustain itself off of helping to design the institutions and the systems that serve our community. So that it isn't a replication of some of many of the toxicity of much of the industry or traditional elements of the industry that are tasked with, we're serving our community and for me, that's just so big. Because even here in Baltimore like I the state of Maryland, I see so much advocacy about more clinical education, more social services, but a lot of the stuff is run by folks that actually do not community more harm than good.

Dr. Charles Lewis

So one thing before before. I know. So we, you're right, that, you know, progressives talk a lot. And, and, and, and but at the same at the end of the day there, there are a lot of progressives in Columbus brothers and sisters, right? Who are comfortable. All right, and they, you know, they got the job, they got the positions, but they don't make they don't make the changes that are necessary in order to change the system, but they don't want to quote unquote, rock the boat. Because when you rock the boat, you know, there's a chance, and the politicians are the worst man, you know, like those guys get in, once again, that they want to be elected every, every, every time and they won't, they won't do anything that's gonna, that's going to jeopardize, you know, the, the opportunity to for election. I thought I so you got so in order to get transformational results, you got to have some revolutionary ideas, okay, because we keep doing the same thing over and over expecting the same results that they said that's the definition of lumens. Right? So we got it, we got to do something different, right. So one of the things for me, is we got to change the way we elect people to office, so that we can get better people in those offices, who are going to be willing to do things and necessary to make change. Because when people get into Congress, they play the same game. They raise the money, you know, just like everybody else. I mean, once No, you'll have times people will speak out on on issues that others may not, but in terms of being willing to just fear who are willing to jeopardize their place in the system to really challenge.

Linda Howard

So let me ask you, because we got this, the bill is asking for commission. Right, one of the questions that we have that came across is who's best qualified to sit on this commission. So I'm looking at, there's supposed to be a 13 member commission. And three people that commission is going to be appointed by the President, you got three members that will be appointed by the Speaker of the House, one member appointed by the Senate. And then there are six other spaces. And I'm going to read what it says it says six members shall be selected from the major civil society and reparations organizations that have historically championed the cause of reparation justice. So the first question is, do you think that's a good makeup of this commission? And is there someone in particular that you think should be sitting on this commission?

Dr. Charles Lewis

Yeah, it's I'm trying to think of the name I saw the other day, and conversation with Skip Gates and aeriform. At Columbia, and the president of Columbia, talking about reconstruction. She's the Executive Director of the African American policy forum. It's my name is

Dayvon Love

Angela Glover?

Dr. Charles Lewis

African American policy forum.

Dayvon Love

Or is that Kimberly Crenshaw?

Dr. Charles Lewis

Yes. Yes, absolutely. If I had to pick one person to be on. Now, as far as the speaker pick, picking three people, right. I mean, we've we got to tell three speakers who those two people should say, yeah, we'll leave it up to if let's say it's Nancy Pelosi. You know, say we have to know we really have to be engaged. We have to be really engaged. We can't the bill passed. We can't say hey, and then you know, leave it up to the sort of mechanisms of but we still have to stay really, really engaged. And we have met those people going onto that mission. And if we see people bought onto the commission, that don't, that should not be on that commission for any reason, we have the chance.

Linda Howard

Okay, so

Dr. Charles Lewis

that there is going to be a lot of come a lot of competition, a lot of different ideas about who should be on the commission. While we should have some kind of way of making sure that the right people

Linda Howard

I want to acknowledge just judge elemi, who joined us, and I know judge Alameen is very passionate about HR 40. So I'm gonna ask you to join the conversation. We've been talking a lot about reparations, V for reparations, and just, you know, the feasibility of this bill and what we should look to get out of it should should pass. So I'm gonna turn it over to you judge and let you kind of jump in here.

Dr. Charles Lewis

Okay, thank you very much, Linda. Good afternoon. fellow panelists and viewers. I salam o aleikum. May God's peace be with you? And I would say that I need you to accept that because that's the only way especially brother Karim Ali is going to be at peace for my tardiness in this. And having joined you I mistakenly calendar this at five I ran an errand thinking I could be back. But it was four. So I apologize. Except those apologies. That said, I ran across something very encouraging. Just yesterday in the October 16 issue of the Muslim journal, our communities newspaper, wherein they reported on the reparations bill that had been signed by California's governor. Who is the Gavin Newsom? Yes, he signed it. I haven't had a look at it. But basically, I think it patterns hr 40, in that establishes the commission to investigate and prescribe exactly what should be the components of reparations. This is in California, a relatively progressive state. But I think this is a great bellwether for the reparations movement. And California, you know, takes the lead in many things, and this is one so it behooves us to study that and delve into it further. But you may have already said and omit really may have been discussed that I arrived at the point of, of focusing on rapid reparations because I didn't want to get bogged down in all on all of the side arguments for those of our Bible study in brothers and sisters. It's like America, you must be born again. You got to enter the womb and come out with a new dispensation. And the only way to do that is to acknowledge the African American at the at the window, of basically the window, what do you call it, you go to the window and you try to cash your check, or you try to get some supplies. It that's where we are. We need supplies with focus, we need education, we need land, we need money, we need identity. We need so many things. We need psychological rebuilding, we need new criminal justice orientation. We need scholarships. We need so much we need our 40 acres and a mule. And then some remember what Harriet Tubman famously said, As quoted by Elisa Shabazz in her book, if I could have convinced more slaves that they were slaves. I could have saved 1000s more. So part of our problem is that we don't know how deep our problem is in the commission that is empowered and I agree with what I heard Charles Lewis saying, we have to watch who's on there. We have to lobby and we have to act be active as to who is going to get on the reparations commission when that does build those pass, because they're going to be some self styled I guess. reactionaries as people afraid of the people are afraid of making white folks, man. But we got to stop being afraid of making white folks mad. We got to make ourselves whole. And those sincere Caucasians be they have Italian, Jewish, Mexican American, what is a Latino origin, they're going to be joined in with us because when America solves the problem of its, quote, unquote, former Negro slaves, America will have exercise this pathological in cancerous source from its its body, and that's what's needed. So that's sort of my intro, and we can take it from there. And then in terms of more specifics, and so forth, but, you know, I since I missed out on some of the dialogue I'm, I hesitate to, to cover ground it's already been on which light has already been shed.

Linda Howard

Well, we do know we have to have back. Well, we can get you in for the, for the full hour, we have about 10 More, we have about 10 more minutes. And we do have a couple of questions. So Karim, do you want me to ask the questions? Or do you want to jump on with the questions?

Karim Ali

Sure, I'll ask the question. So yeah, it might be a little bit easier. Thank you. I think you've judged for all that you do to give back. So she asked a question about who would be most qualified? I had a question. And I want to ask Dr. Lewis, but you had a program at the Press Club, I believe was last year, we brought on some thought leaders, and they were talking specifically about the 529 savings account for children. For students, do you think that that will be one of the areas that would should be first considered funded through a reparations? agreement on that 529 students? And in that instance, I recall, the gentlemen speaking of all students across the board, whether they be black, white, you know, people color what have you, what are your thoughts around that? Because it goes to, you know, the how of, you know, a dispensing of these resources.

Dr. Charles Lewis

So I yeah, this is the plan where every child will be given a $500 savings account at birth. And then depending on their socio economic status, they can build that account. Kids in low income households, low income families, can can get tax free, they could, you know, they could do pets, we contributions to, to these accounts. And as you know, it's a stratified system. So the more you make, the less you can, you know, the less benefits you get in terms of tax benefits in terms of building these accounts. And so it is a way it's a way to, to guarantee that future generations do not grow up without assets, and it will disproportionately benefit. People color because we're disproportionately, and that no income strategy. You know, I think it's, I mean, I don't want and I don't wanna spend too much time on on, should have been would have been right. But we missed some, some real big opportunities on that Supreme Court. And this would have cost because as long as we got to console the Supreme Court, then there will be no allowance for undoing discrimination. So we've got to have to be, you know, we're gonna have to deal with that and try to figure out policies that will disproportionately benefit African Americans, although not sold.

Karim Ali

Yet another question came up in this way for Davvon. I mean, you've got thought out there that, hey, we, you know, monies or resources that will come from reparations really are not due to people of today. That's money actually, that would have been owed to, you know, people that were actually enslaved. Right. And you've got different thoughts around what what reparations should actually look like. So my question to you is, like, as you think about what actually should be developed, you know, for, you know, black people in America, do you think that the contract, you know, with black America that has been sort of CO signed by ice cube, and initiatives like that speak more directly to what actually is needed? And what are some of the initiatives that you will want to see come out of this effort?

Dayvon Love

I'll say three quick things. One is wealth as generational wealth doesn't exist, really in the confines of one individual person. And as you know, societies require social relations, social relations are deeply impacted by wealth, who you hang out with, has impacts on your access to resources. So So that's so when people say, folks today, it really should be people who are enslaved, that should get the resources as descendants of those who were enslaved. And as people of African descent, we we we should we are recovering what was lost. Second is, you mentioned like the contract for American IceCube. You know, there have been lots of claims, lots of documents over many years. Good points, on a lot of these questions of, of a addressing the issue, particularly issues of wealth and a variety of other issues. In my just my own kind of study of history, what I think has been the challenge, one of the central challenges, is our ability to develop the infrastructure to operationalize the plans in a way that is sustainable beyond particular moments. Like I think part of the issue is that there are moments that come up that come around, and we work within the confines of those moments. And those moments never last as long as we need for us to be able to operationalize the solutions that these plans speak to. And then lastly, I would say that, one of the ways, for instance, as we think about reparations, and I think, a variety of ways to think about how it should be actually done. I'm interested in black folks to having conversations about like, what industries do we want? Right, because I think a lot of times we talk in terms of just Dallas. Right. But I think we should talk about what industries do we want? No. And I mentioned, like, you know, the human social service sector before, which includes education, social work, etc. To me, those are industries that that should belong to us, primarily, because we're most of the people being served by those industries. Right. So So I think we should talk in terms of we want that industry, same thing that about marijuana, right, marijuana is being legalized all over the place, but it's white folks that are the ones benefiting from it. So we should start talking about what industries do we want, that rightfully belong to us, that will outlive just the transaction of giving us what we owe?

Karim Ali

And thank you. And lastly, this is for Josh Assan. And and you can look at this from the perspective of all the years on the bench. And you've seen, you know, many people come before you and I wouldn't hesitate to say that many of them are African American people in our community. Can you talk a little bit about so that we don't step over this the condition that we're in as a people today, and why this is such an important issue? And and somebody said to me before is it's not about us getting money? Of course, we need money. And yeah, it may take trillions of dollars to get us there. But it's not about that, can you? You know, sort of just and that'll bring us to close to close the program. But I don't want to step over the condition that we're in today that requires that this conversation be taken seriously.

Dr. Charles Lewis

Well, thank you for agreeing. One of the wonders similar questions is why? Why do we act like we do? It to me? The answer is, many of us don't know who we are. We have this sort of general idea of, you know, where we came from. But one of the things I would love to see in addition to that edge, you know, an educational plank of very strong educational play or as a part of that is I think we should be allowed, we should be funded, the so called right of return. We now can access our DNA. And I believe that every African American should be allowed to wear with all been given DNA tests and round trip tickets plus a couple of weeks It's worth of money for us to visit our ancestral homes in Africa through African Ancestry DNA, not not, not not, not the other Ancestry DNA, but there's a company called African Ancestry DNA. They can advertise on TV like ancestry.com. Ken, this is African answers. So I happen to have done my DNA, and my wife as well. And you know, there is the Sierra Leone as the Alien and the Mandinka connection. But I was very surprised on my dad's side, he comes from the Ubuntu people of Angola. Budo was the tribe that to which the Great Queen in Xena belong, I want to be able to go there, I want to see my ancestors, I want to be able to have an interpreter there to see who looks like me, do I see some distant cousin. I mean, we need to be able to link up so we can physically identify with who we are. And that will help us morally and spiritually identify with who we are, of course, we know we're children of God and all that other stuff. But you know, let's get down to earth they stole us took us over here, across the water. Now we want to go through the door of no return and return and then come back with a better sense of self. So by the Korean the answer to that question is we don't know who we are, if we knew who we were, we'd be a lot better off. There's no people in the world that has been totally separate from their roots. And we just are very, I mean, it's only the, the by the by the province of the Divine power of God Allah that we can even function. But if you sat us down collectively on the psychiatrist couch the psychiatrist is they Well, here's some drugs man cuz that's gonna make you really know who you are. And that's what we've done. I heard what you said Davonne about industry? Of course. Yeah, the marijuana industry is there and and shamefully we didn't get any concessions in that I blame the lack Legislative Caucus for that terrible miscue. But, you know, we certainly can do better than we, we've got the entertainment industry, where we do all the show and very little of the business. I mean, look at what the I'm trying to think of the the stellar Taylor Swift look at look at the money she's amassed because of her control of her own product. We got more rappers doing that now. But come on, we there's entertainment, there's sports. You know, from from Magic Johnson to the brother who owns part of the Michael Jordan, all of our Tiger Woods should have. So we've got so much talent, but we we all we need that infrastructure, as you say, to be able to harness harness it, but identity is a big issue a green

Karim Ali

Yeah, Linda, you can?

Linda Howard

Yes, so where we're at the top of the hour. And I want to thank all of our Profound Conversations lists. I think this conversation today could have spent off in a lot of different directions. So this gives us some food for thought, as we plan some of the episodes coming forward and certainly judge we will definitely want to get you back again to get a full hour and so let's just consider this a teaser. So that we can think about how our next conversation

Karim Ali

you are acknowledging some before we do close out the the program Profound Conversations executive produced by was life Planning Institute, media expression of production via the network webinar technical logistics produced by Erika Christie, Khadija Ali graphics and animation design cafe. Today's host is a Linda Howard, CEO of alternative. And obviously today's guest and I thank you Dr. Charles Lewis progressional our research is to help me with for policy for social work and social work and policy. Davonne love, a public policy with Leaders of a Beautiful Struggle, and judge Hassan Allemagne, retired Prince George's County Circuit court judge, I want to thank everyone. Again, without you, there would be no programming. So tune in next week, same time, same bat channel. Thank you under you close out like

Linda Howard

I think you got it. So thanks, everyone for joining and join us next week for the next Profound Conversations.

Dayvon Love

Right. Thank you. Take care.

Dr. Charles Lewis

Thank you, everybody. Keep up the good work.

Erika Christie

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