A Cast Study of American Injustice and Cultural Incompetence

With Difficulty Comes Ease...  How do we make sense of the days and times we find ourselves in?  Common impulses to the injustice and corruption are raw and visceral.  Words don’t seem to contain the energy to hold the gravity of the moment.  There is bewilderment, anger and even rage.  However, within the midst of the senseless there remains a need to bring all things into balance.  Our human intelligence demands that we search for answers.  Being proactive in the pursuit of a better life requires contributions from diverse perspectives and cultures, hence the new-found unity in the streets.  As tensions continue swirling due to the global pandemic, national elections and turmoil in city streets, where should right minded people focus their energies?

How does today inform our future as valued citizens? How do we evolve and grow from these putrid moments in American history? 

Show Topics and Highlights

Our guest host for Profound Conversations is Andre Robinson and our Profound Conversationalists are Dr. Ted Sutton, Dr. Debbie Almontaser, and Jamal Williams.

Help me learn and understand and become better as an ally.

Society has such obvious and dramatic lessons that Black Lives really don’t matter.

The though leadership conversation doesn’t mean that much to us when we’re dealing with food and water for the next day. The immediacy of the danger and the despair many find themselves in.

How do we have those conversations with young people that their resilience is baked in and to help them navigate to a place of self empowerment?

You’re not trash, you’re just tarnished. It can take just one person to shine you up to show what’s really inside you.

God changed my foundational system and now I know what’s worth dying for.

It’s the dehumanizing idea that someone from outside the culture can come along and decide to ‘civilize’ you as you are seen as a savage and in need of education.

Language really has an impact in how you form your ideas and think about yourself.

The subtle racism we see in schools is something we have to call out and something we need to change.

There is something worse than murder . . . oppression.

If mastery is hitting a large that others can’t hit, and genius is hitting a target that others can’t see, that what is collective genius?

These are the stories of community. These are the stories of leadership.

The “thought leadership” conversation doesn’t always mean that much to us when we’re helping others with finding food and water for the next day.

We need to contemplate our way forward to get real psychic liberation. And how do we teach young people that from a young age. 

Profound Conversations Executive Producers are the Muslim Life Planning Institute, a national community building organization whose mission is to establish pathways to lifelong learning and healthy communities at the local, national and global level.   MLPN.life

The Profound Conversations podcast is produced by Erika Christie www.ErikaChristie.com

Full Transcript

Erika Christie

Welcome to Profound Conversations, a dynamic broadcast platform focused on building healthy communities. content for programming is developed through our interests and involvement in education, economic development, culture, and governance. Profound Conversations is a listening and discussion space, which brings thought leaders into a conversation to address the vexing challenges of our times. In an ever evolving world. New ideas and transformative ways of being are the lights at the end of the tunnel. Please join us as we participate in critical and Profound Conversations impacting humanity.

Karim Ali

Welcome audience to our third episode, second season of profound conversation. And today, we're going to look at or have a profound conversation about the Breanna Taylor case, and look at aspects of dehumanization that's occurred or within the United States that has led to that incident, and many, many, many others. So it's really not a program to necessarily focus on Brianna Taylor, but as a case study of dehumanization, and as a case study of injustice and cultural competency. Today, we have our hosts Andre Robinson, and we have Dr. Debbie Almontaser, as a guest, we have Jamal Williams as a guest and we also have Dr. Ted Sutton as a guest today. Just a little bit of housekeeping before we start, if you have a question or comment, if you please put that in the chat box. And what we'll do is get that answered, we're going to start opening up for those questions around 445. We'd like to finish up right at five o'clock. So without any further ado, I'd like to turn it over to Mr. Andre Robinson.

Andre L Robinson Jr

So hello, everybody. Thank you for for joining us today, for another episode of Profound Conversations. Just as a reminder, we it won't be a lot of guests that are joining us, we don't actually share the information very broadly, because we have a Very Powerful after action report that we send out with links in appropriate contacts with everybody. But I'm very, very pleased today to have our guests explore this topic of some great seriousness, and certainly, the thought leadership on this is going to be very important. So I'd like to welcome back after our meeting, our pre meeting, Dr. Ted Sutton. Williams also has joined us again, and we are very fortunate to have with us today Dr. Debbie elements tous. Ahead, it's almost said, Dr. Debbie Almontaser, they're almost okay. So I'm going to get it right. But we'll be Dr. Debbie, just to make sure we stay safe. So, Dr. I'd like to start with you just to sort of, you know, balance out the the rows between all these thorns here. But tell us, if you will, based on the nature of your work in the moment that we're in some perspectives to get us started on this subject?

Dr. Debbie Almontaser

Well, first, I want to I want to thank, I want to thank you all for inviting me to this important conversation, I want to say a set already come to my brothers and sisters who who are on the program and who will be viewing it. And you know, this topic is very close to my heart as someone who's dedicated the last 25 years to diversity, equity and inclusion. Throughout the course of my career, as a New York City, public school teacher, administrator, Principal, this has been a topic that has been close to my heart, especially because of the demographics of New York City, where I've had the extraordinary opportunity to work with communities of color, and to serve in a deep, profound way and build those kinds of relationships that really have, you know, help young people that I have had the opportunity to work with flourish and shine. And the reason that I believe I was instrumental in their life and in their success was I was able to meet them where they are, and to work with them and to you know, empower them to see the you know, the richness and who they are, their culture, their history, and to really love themselves and feel a sense of pride of where they came from, and what they have to contribute. And I think that this really for me, is a driving force with any community that I work with is that first we have to start with self worth. And we live in a society you know, that does not you know, appreciate You know, self worth, especially self worth of communities of color, you know, systemic racism has been a part of this nation from its inception, it continues to be. And there's so much that we have to challenge, you know, to break down those barriers and those walls to be able to, you know, have people see themselves as complete human beings. And so, you know, for me to come on this program, and to have a discussion with you all, is something that I cherish, and I welcome. And I hope that whatever I'm able to share will be an important contribution to those listening. And I hope that what I hear from all of you, in this discussion will also be something that will benefit me and help me learn and understand and become better. As an ally. In this important work, I by no means, you know, take on any leadership Helm. When it comes to working with communities, I simply do one thing, and that is listen, and help center, the directly impacted community, centering them and telling them what can I do? How can I help lead, you know, lead me, you know, to help. And so, I think that that's has really helped me throughout the course of my career, and then also the important, you know, relationships that I've established in New York City and the interfaith community in the social justice community. And you know, those relationships, when something comes down or happens, you're able to rely on those relationships to bring healing and reconciliation in communities where, you know, awful things such as what happened to Brianna Taylor happened, you know, so it's a blessing, it's a blessing to be able to do inter cultural and cross cultural and intersectional.

Andre L Robinson Jr

Debbie. And I want to follow up that with a question, actually, to Dr. Ted, because there's some themes and what you just discussed and some of the things that Dr. Ted Sutton brought up the other day, that is the sense of being there with the people. And Dr. Chen, I'd like you to actually follow up with that a little bit, because you spoke very profoundly the other day about that need of sort of being really there to meet them at the place where their self worth may be leaking out. And so since the society has such obvious and genetic lessons, that black lives, it really don't matter. But you're there kind of as an interceptor of that message. So Dr. Tables, you kind of briefly give a follow up to what Dr. Debbie is talking about, based on what we talked about the other day.

Dr. Ted Sutton

Yes, that's so significant, because I feel one thing that I'm actually doing, and we part of a book that's been written as talking about why black people should be able to train police officers for the black community, being a part of that training, because there's a major disconnect, I think. And so one of the things in fact, actually my chapter that I'm doing is actually called that people have been using, and an eight track solution for an iPod problem. And it's just talking about how disconnected really, they are as far as with different things. So it's absurd to me, when people can even get offended. If you say, you know, black lives matter. And then somebody will say, well, all lives matter. And but I get the scenario, and I say, Okay, well, if you live on my block, all of our houses do matter. But if my house is on fire, the urgency for is a little bit different. Because I still know your house matters. But right now, mine is burning to the ground. And I think that so it's so it's for me to try to rap, do a rally call to have people to come help save, you know, my home, and hopefully, it won't spread to your home. And so, you know, pretty much, you know, so people are very disconnected. And so I think and I think I mentioned that there are like levels to this thing. And so as I talked to a lot of people who can say, well, I don't want to stay while in March and I will understand why they are out there. And all you know, they broke glass they they damage something and but a good portion have been people who have had good jobs have not had the same level of experience that some of the young men that I I deal with because I'm I'm like I'm a gang intervention specialist. And so a good portion of the young men and young women that I actually deal with are definitely people who have been mistreated, downtrodden, and really don't have a lot of, let's say, I will say respect for authority because they feel that they are the same ones who have abused them. And so, you know, with that being said, you know, that's that's, you know, I guess some of it, you know, as far as with that.

Andre L Robinson Jr

Thank you. Thank you, Ted. And Jamal, I want to get you in this conversation as well. Because in our pre meeting that we had the other day, and you're talking about your upcoming book, I don't know if it's still upcoming the social social gradient, this analysis that we go beyond just the stuff that we know, right, demographics, psychographics, and so forth, and so on, that in the hands of people like Dr. Ted, Dr. Debbie and I heard that have also boots on the ground and communities and have an immediate need to our left and our right. But the the, the thought leadership conversation, and the broad scope of the analysis, if you will, doesn't really mean that much to them, when they are actually further down on the ranking of just Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? There's food and water, and enough to eat the next day. And those kinds of things, the immediacy of the danger, that and the despair that they find themselves in. But how do we actually use some of the work that you're talking about to actually build out? Pedagogy, if you will, for the transformation of communities with it to speak to Ted's analysis, if we only work on his one house and five of them on fire? That won't work either, right? So we've got to find a broader paradigm for doing the shift and the kind of rescue that we really need to do for our for our community. So could you speak to how your work interfaces with something that we who are action oriented, like I know Ted and I come from the same kind of background, although his background is a little bit more, shall we say, pointed in a different levels of education than I did? Right. He was outside tormenting me when I was inside trying to do my typing class. In other words, he's on the flip side of that now. So how do we actually pull in some of this knowledge platforms in the pedagogy to actually deliver to a broader scope of our community?

Jamal Williams

Well, yeah, just touch base on Thank you, Andre. And can you guys hear me? Well? Yeah. If you mean, yeah. Wonderful, wonderful. So it's, it's our work. I mean, interestingly enough, we're sort of a distinct a unique real estate development firm that focuses on real estate playspace. But we have another side of the practice that focuses on behavioral culture, sort of our code centric circles of business, technology, culture, drives economies, knowledge is how do we produce the things, the speed at which we work and culture presence? And so we're very much focused on understanding the behavior of humans that we're interested in. And so yes, part of the pedagogical thesis that we've developed is called social analysis, social credit analysis beyond demographics, and psychographics. Whether it's whether Some see it as a communication tool for the 21st century, or what a way to actually deal with the age of social media, and many aspects, the thesis is interchangeable, usable for economic analysis, cultural analysis, and so forth. The interesting about this discussion here today, where we talk about humanization. And Miss particular case, because we're talking about bionic tail, and we're seeing that happen, happening is how we black lives, I mean, the conversation around around sort of tangible, this this this title that black lives, is that black lives. Intersectionality is very interesting in terms of the compound things that happen in our lives. Right? So for example, you have a young lady like Briana Taylor, lifting herself with a push. And as, at the same time for boyfriend, right, someone who's tying results is somehow being related to drugs, and other and for many of us, in our communities and our families, our tribes. We have those sorts of relationships, where you have someone that is finishing a masters or a PhD and someone who's in the streets and someone who's or is hooked on drugs or Obregon. Someone who's having a baby and someone who's doing well in their job Then how all that comes together? How do you how do you really? And the in justices, that sort of arrangement? And how do we really deal with that? Right? And then when you have these flash points of crisis, as we're talking about today, you have to ponder and say, what is it that we can do? What if missing, what's missing that at present would make the difference? So we focus on now from a standpoint of dialogue and conversation, but also pushing consciousness that we have to skip the way people see themselves and think about themselves and their relationships with one another answer, therefore, the idea of social gradient is going to gradient itself, that you are not just an individual, that you are an individual relationships, family, try and try to the neighborhoods, communities, you have, if you have a relationship with yourself is in societal relationships. It's state and nation global relationships, how you're viewed around the world view. So there are these relationships that sometimes when when looked at too broadly can be very confusing. And so what we try to do is offer a conversation or the experience of a dialogue, and think and process together, how we can have a different perspective on how we see ourselves in relationships, and become more productive, using what we call social technology, or the social media.

Andre L Robinson Jr

Dr. Debbie, I would imagine in your in your work, that you must see many Briana tailors in the neighborhoods that you've been working with specially in schools and so on and so on there, but go the grace of God is any of our daughters, right? Absolutely. How do we how do we have those conversations impact on them, to the extent that their resilience is baked in to get them through very treacherous waters to navigate themselves to kind of a self empowerment. So tell me a little bit more about that particular instance with with see where I am in your core. It's a real constant refrain. Now, of course, helicopters overhead 24 hours a day, which I did not know once, because I wasn't working from home all day, I was coming home at night. But now we're we are actually in the soup with everyone. And sometimes our best and brightest are also in trapped, right. It's the it's our honor student that's in trouble in some of these environments. So how do we have the kind of conversation within that last, that it builds enough resilience in them that they can sort of navigate that that gauntlet if you will.

Dr. Debbie Almontaser

I'd like to share with you an opportunity that I had, at a very unique school here in New York City, it's called Benjamin Banneker Academy. It is in Clinton Hill. And the school was created to basically enrich the lives of African American youth, through the culture, the history, the heritage, of the very people, you know, in the black community. And so, in my six years of working there, I felt a sense of connection. And I felt at home. And the reason that I did was because the mission and vision of the school match my mission and vision of helping, you know, communities see their self worth see, you know, the potential that they have, and, and all the things that are, you know, possible to them. So, in my first year there, one of the students that I had actually had, I was the director of learning support for them, one of the students that was in the group of students that I was working with, and these are specifically students who are with who had special needs, who needed testing accommodations, who needed extra support and learning, because they weren't getting as much support in their classrooms, home, whatever the case was. And pretty much what I did was provide them an additional period where in a small setting, they had the opportunity to work on projects, one on one, you know, with the help with my help, and so one of the young people that was in this program, was actually a student who was going to the adults in school from a very young age, he started there at, you know, kindergarten, and then by the time he reached middle school, they basically told him that he could not continue on in the program because he was not up to par. And he was there with another African American boy. And the family of the other boy actually decided to document the history and the story of these two boys at the Dalton school and the trajectory of their schooling life. So, you know, Shay ended up being asked to leave the school, he came to Benjamin Banneker Academy, he didn't feel that he had much to contribute, he felt rejected, he felt, you know, he didn't feel connected to anything or anyone. And by working with him, I was able to get him to see what he really had to offer the world. And it was just tapping into his interest, tapping into his passions, and getting to really see that he didn't need the daughter's school, to make him feel smart, he was smart. And it was a lost opportunity for the Dalton school to actually have asked him to leave. Now the other boy who remained at the Dalton school, and the parents were looking for multiple ways to make sure that he was up to par, you know, they had recommendations of putting him on medication, I strongly recommend that you watch this documentary, because it is really profound as to how the public education system and the private independent schools are treating our black, you know, men, young men are, you know, our black students. And so, you know, this subtle racism, right, that exists within schools, is something that we have to call out is something that we have to challenge. And all of this happened, because the Dalton school had one way of educating all their students. And that was the Eurocentric way, right, was looking at the child holistically. And so what we need right now is holistic education that actually allows us to bring in the meaningful and relevant things in the lives of our young people to be able to learn and flourish, we cannot, you know, take a curriculum, you know, and impose it when there is no prior knowledge when there is no connection to it. And so, you know, this has been the biggest challenge that I've seen in this, you know, education system. And what we've done here in New York City is we've challenged it through basically, the city council and saying to them, Look, we need diversity education, we need to make sure that our schools, which right here in New York, our schools have become segregated, right, you know, they have become segregated. And the segregation that has, you know, happened, you know, decade after a decade, has really disenfranchised our children. And so those schools that have large populations of black and brown communities are not getting their due, right. And the adequate education and so we, you know, propose this, we created a Diversity Advisory Group, which I was then invited to sit on. And we made all of these recommendations. And the one recommendation that we were emphatic about was culturally responsive education, we basically said, for the school system, enough is enough, you cannot bring, you know, curriculum created in Mid America, and expect a child a black and brown child in New York City, to be able to read this passage and understand that cultural context, that, you know, perspective, it needs to be perspectives that they are aware of, that is a part of their cultural context to be able to flourish and to, to succeed. And so right now, there's a big push with culturally responsive education that we have actually hammered away. And in addition to that, we also mandated implicit bias training, because a lot of what we see happening is actually being perpetuated by educators. And I'm not just talking about white educators, but I'm also talking about, you know, other communities there. You know, the New York City school system has, you know, people from all parts of the world that are cheating, who have no sense of understanding of what it means to be black, in America. And so this implicit bias training has been really, really profound to use, and to provide within the school systems to really help people, you know, check their implicit biases at the door. Because I could go on,

Andre L Robinson Jr

You're helping you throw things to, to the to the panel, Dr. Ted, I'd like you to speak to that anti, that sort of general sense of anti black sentiment that's woven into the system, but also the value of ally Right, because you've Your journey has taken you through both right we have we've we've always had abolitionists on the other side. Now we have liberators just involved. justice advocates in many cultures. Right. Right. But But how do we address that anti black sentiment that's woven into the DNA? It's in the groundwater, right? Yes. And asked her to speak to that as well. But could you speak to that?

Dr. Ted Sutton

Well I say that she really was hitting it. And actually, I did something I just did something. I've been leaving college in the boogie down Bronx, you know, up there in, you know, in New York, and working with Marlon Brando gonna hold that against your brother. Well, while I was also in the whiners projects in Brooklyn, you know, saying but you know, so that's just how it is, you know, but just to, you know, just address some of that I looked at my own personal story. And I think I shared some before and one is that, yes, I'm one of the younger people that they wrote the series, the wire behind. So before I was docketed, I was known as crazy. And but one of the, one of the people from the Rolling Stone magazine and actually said they wanted to know about when did I stop being crazy teen and I said, I never stopped. And it was just that God changed my foundational belief system. So now No, was worth dying for now. So and I only said that to say is that one of the when they asked what was the most significant place that I spoke to, and this is after going to the White House, Congress, Zimbabwe, England, all these different places, the King Center, I said, when I was able to speak at my high school, where my principal place the bet that I would not make it to 21. And my counselor said, I should not attempt to go to college, because I did not enjoy writing. But I was taking precalculus. I mean to, you know, am I any and they didn't know that my father, who was a passive two churches who organized with Dr. King had a degree in biochemistry, a master's in social work, and adopted in theology. And my mother had a master's in education and actually became a principal, and did 35 years in the system. And I was the middle child in this office, the lead in the direction that they said that I should not attempt, I will never forget that. And so when I ended up actually being the keynote speaker there, in fact, and my message to the students was, you're not trash, you're just tarnished. So we make these take one person to shine you well, like the genie in the lamp to show what's really inside of you. And but when they said a lot, Congressman Elijah Cummings next to me, and he looked at me, and he looked at the program, and he had to look at me again, he said, Man, you have to tell me what you have been doing. And I say yes, because the last time that we were in chairs, sitting next to each other, this was not the case, because he was actually my attorney, for defending me for something that I had done in the past, and now to see me coming back to that same school, with that principle, with a counselor with people who had given up on me, had to sit there and I came back with my, my Bachelor's, my master's, and working on my doctorate and my book, temporarily insane and working on my second book, from paying to power. And so when you look at that type of curriculum, that she, I think a dress, just like US history is mandatory. But it starts it starts black history with slavery. We, most people don't want to identify with being a slave because really, I never say we are slaves. As what I say we were POWs. We were behind enemy lines Hellcat, because we were free. And so with that being said, we have to learn to to be able to meet people where they are, but as far as it being a melting pot, the US is supposed to be a melting pot, but it's not allowing us to melt and gel together. Everything is saying that you have to learn everything on my side, you have to come to my side and I'm not going to embrace what's important to you and significant to you. And so when you have people that don't know, their history, their roots, and to be honest with you, you know, that actually was forbidden you were forbidden to learn you and know your history and they would kill you if they had to if you if you started to read and learn about the history, and we have to really Look at that. So I feel that that I've been made a bridge builder. And so because I know the streets, I also know the educational side, the business world and different things of that nature, the educational world, and we have to bring this together. And Bill, you know, as far as with that, because to me is simply unacceptable that so many of our youth has been collateral damage, and it's okay to be left behind. It should not be acceptable that they are left behind this.

Andre L Robinson Jr

Jamal, we're not going to let Dr. Ted get away with all the bumper stickers this afternoon. Okay. back pressure just tarnished, because you know, he will, he will write the rest of them. So but I will please do weigh in. And we will love it, the passion, all of it is their real life experiences, much of your work is really brings in the intersectionality in those bridge building those scaffolds out.

Jamal Williams

I mean, the interesting thing about what Dr. Assad is mentioned in that second set is, and we looked at that work, I mean, he's talking about for him, it was a life or death situation where at some point along the way, there was a change in perception. What he wanted to do, we needed to do. And in a sense, it didn't come from outside factor documents. Just tying it back into our subject, it's the idea that each of us live our as as again, along the great experiences and our families, our tribes, culture, and it is somewhat dehumanizing, as it was done to the American Indians, and where someone is, you know, civilizing, you know, you're seen as a savage. And so, therefore, you need outside education all over the world. And so the idea that, that someone comes and is not tailoring learning, understanding the world, to a curriculum where, you know, towards a curriculum that you can really benefit, again, from another section itself, you know, you know, schooling, you know, in a prisoner of war, as an example. So it's very, that's, it's a dehumanizing in that sense. And the way we deal with that concept for us, so we, in our practice, we really take a closer look at language will be called a social architecture of language, that language has really has an impact on how you born your ideas and think about yourself. And so even two words like diversity and inclusion, these type of words, like there's such a thing now in real estate development as inclusionary real estate development. But that doesn't quite cut it as we tried to get to equity. So what we've said is, what's different is vernacular, development is different. And that's what documents of SARS mentioned. It is bring an education that you understand for yourself, if you need there's a vernacular, not just inclusion, right. So I think I'm, I'm certainly their their challenges, how we coexist, just environment, a country in history. I don't think I do think we spend more time thinking about how some of these challenges are dehumanizing us, but how we can overcome them by focusing on the shift of perception, and language and how we think about how we engage one another. I do see that as very, very important. I want to grab, I actually had some other points to make with regards to the subject of dehumanization, or what has happened to be on a tailor. And the issue that we're facing, I think Ted mentioned in one of our conversations, poverty, and how we mentioned that poverty is really, if you think about is the lack of hope. And of course, and there's a virtual law says the Satan threatens you with poverty. And oftentimes we look at that and think it's its capital. So what we're talking about here is removing hope that the hope end up a lot is there a helper in ultimate helper? That is the idea. The other thing is, you know, what is there's another version of granite says again, tiny back immunization advocate, Taylor, is that oppression is that there's something worse than murder, or the hotel? Because the law says there is something worse than murder. What could be worse, worse than murder? It is oppression in terms of the humanization removed from Hope, and so forth. And I don't think that we really get that seriousness as a country necessarily the seriousness of what it means, you know, given the systems that are operating institutions that are operating that we need to correct, these are very serious system that really again dehumanizes us. Murder is worse than oppression. Killing, I'm sorry, there's something worse than killing and murder. And, and so I say that to say this that I, I struggle a bit with the the outcome of the case, knowing the historical aspects of, of our communities, the things that TED is talking about, just dealing with people that have less than others. The idea of that we have education every doesn't serve some of the brightest minds that we have. I get into this conversation. Yes, I can carry on to television last, but if you really want to know the number one, the number one cause of death, in the black community, try abortion for 20 million black babies aborted between 1970 and 2020. If not more, like how many Benjamin Banneker that is there, I'm okay. You know, but these are economic forces that are causing those sort of the social causes as well from, you know, racism and just, you know, you know, exclusion rather than inclusion, to generic policies, and so forth, or lack of equity, and so on, so I'm, it's not that visiting the usual, what we look at is not visiting the usual or things that happened with the usual or trying to push ourselves a little bit further to see what's there. What can we uncover in our consciousness for subconsciousness that really take this thinking beyond what others may be prescribed books. So for me, it's like, I was asked a question about bionic turtle. And I said, I had to think about and I said, Well, maybe we're being asked, but we didn't get justice. Briana tell us case, because maybe we're being asked to focus on just like voting Donald Trump at the office. Right? So maybe that's why we're not being given a small victory, like a victory for beyond a tail and may not have been a victory for black America. But certainly, we have a better chance of a victory for black America and getting that. I can say that because Joe Biden said that. But but but nevertheless. And if you were asked a question, Briana Taylor being a person of upward thinking, high thinking, obviously, because she had improved her life from where she was where she, you know, and that's talked about, and that's represent a larger story, what she would she have said, are bigger thinking in her collective genius, something we've talked about in our book, and her bigger thinking if Master is in a target that others can't see. And genius is hitting the target that others are a massive target that others can fit. And genius is hitting a target that others can see. And what is collective genius. And so if we are to Taylor, is an upward mobile, which she has said today, if you would ask me what I want you the bigger victory be that I win. Or that we have the biggest voting someone out of office and really looking at things seriously, in looking at the structures of that institution of law enforcement, it's so rigid, that when we talk about the funding, and no one is saying to fund it, all we're talking about is got to take some of the power out of it, to loosen it up so that it can flexibly number change

Andre L Robinson Jr

Dr. Debbie, I want to wonder if this is kind of a shift in conversation to a certain extent, because to a builder to like a hammer, everything looks like a nail, right? It looks like an opportunity to do something. And so many of us are predisposed to take an action. Where is the therefore we shall moment in this? You know, certainly Briana Taylor's name even being mentioned pursuing justice for that long is unusual in America. Right? So we saw the series about operate of Briana Taylor, and then George Floyd, and then the countless others who remain nameless, all of a sudden you see shots fired all over the place. If you you know, just, you know, just take us down the road a little bit, how do we use this moment? And again, I know that you don't control is deposited on it for a minute about what is the therefore we shall place where we bring all of these energies that come together very briefly, and then you know, they usually recede back into Instagram or whatever, where action is required. And then commitment has to keep you there. The commitment usually doesn't happen. We have some action that goes away. So if you had a magic wand, how do we keep that going to a certain extent so that we can use this moment to actually foment real change in America?

Dr. Debbie Almontaser

Absolutely. I think and this is something that I've been saying, you know, for the last several months Since you know, all of this, sadly has unfolded is that we have to center the voices of the black community. And how do we do that we need them to leave. We need them to tell us what needs to happen and how it needs to happen. Because what we have seen, sadly, you know, throughout the course of the last, you know, 1015 years that we've, every time we've seen someone being shot in the black community, we all go out there, we're all protesting, but the majority of the people that you are seeing, as spokespeople half of the time are not even black Americans, that has to change. Second, we also have to make sure that we have the right leadership leading within the black community. It is not my job, it is not my place, or anybody that looks like me to say who that leadership should be. It shouldn't be identified from within the black community. I want to see people like Dr. Ted, I want to see people like brother Jabaal. Now why am I singling them out because they're in the trenches, they are in the grassroots, they understand the community, they know the pulse of the community. I and this is with all due respect what I'm about to say, I don't want to see Reverend Al Sharpton, speaking, because he is so far removed, and so detached to what is actually happening in black communities. We need people who are connected to those communities to be able to help all of us understand what role we could play as allies. I also want to say that we as allies need to self check. You know, there are a lot of activists who are white, there are some who are, you know, Arab American, you know, a variety of others who have, you know, taken, you know, this issue, you know, as their own, but I don't want always to see them being the spokespeople either. And so we need to have that shift of helping America understand that, you know, the black community can help us solve this issue. And all we need to do is listen to them, make sure that they are the ones leading all of this, and we will be able to do it. And you know, I have had the opportunity to work with the Black Lives Matter Greater New York, here in New York City. incredible leadership, thoughtful, very grassroot, very connected to what's happening. As you may recall, you know, back in June, early June, the riots that happen on Fordham Road in the Bronx, there were a lot of Yemeni bodegas that were actually you know, laundered and then broken into and destroyed. And last night, as I was watching everything unfold, I text message, the president of Black Lives Matter, news. And I said, Hey, brother, how are you doing? Because he lived in the Bronx, then he's like, I'm good. I'm not in the city. I'm watching everything. I'm so sorry, sister. I don't know what to tell you. You know, this is not our people. This is not how we roll. This is not how we are going, you know, after Justice. And I just want you to know that we will stand with the bodegas in our communities, they are the lifeline. They are essential workers. And so I want you to create a poster. Here's our Black Lives Matter logo, put it on these posters. We want to meet you tomorrow. And Fordham Road, we're going to go to the stores, speak to the owners and let them know that we are standing with them, and that we will get through this together. In addition to that, which I did not know, he also sent a crew of teenagers, young people volunteers to help early that morning to start cleaning up stores. And so they showed up and they working. These are the stories that we don't hear. Why don't we hear them because the media chooses what is the, you know, attractive story to put out there. But these are the stories of community right? These are the stories of leadership. This all organically came from him because I simply said to him, brother, what can we do in this moment? How can we be of help? You know, what do you think we should do? And all of these things came through. We then took it a step further. We the Yemenis for black lives, where we actually now have painted storefronts in the Bronx and different parts of Brooklyn, where we've had black artists come in do a sketch of Black Lives Matter, you know, mural. We've had Yemeni youth and black youth coming over the course of the summer to paint. And so these are the kinds of projects that we need to be doing. Now, why are these happening? It's because people are in the trenches, and then grassroots knowing what kind of work needs to happen to bring feeling on. So I'm going to start there, you know, so that way my brothers can also.

Andre L Robinson Jr

Thank you and Dr. Ted, same question. But still also speak to that, that issue of not only sustaining it, but where do we get the collective power that goes beyond the segregation of well, these are black streets, and those are brown streets. And those are those streets. Because as I started this, my premise that I start with is Dr. Debbie was saying, I also have no responsibility to reform white supremacy, right, that is somebody else to do while we heal the black family. So talk with us about that, because you're literally right there. And then you can speak to that sense of where we can, if you had the magic wand, like where would you take us?

Dr. Ted Sutton

Well, I will share this because one thing is just like when pretty great. When things went down with him. Some of his friends called me the night when it actually happened before he actually lost his life. When when, and I was actually talking with them. And also the, the young lady that had that ended up trying to protect a life with the shotgun, and shot through the wall. Actually, I was mentoring her God, brother. And so when I see so much of this injustice, people have to understand that even the Bible says to anger but sin not meaning that you should be, you should be moved to want to do something. And I think that a lot of times that, you know, people, the majority are just so emotional, but we have to tap into that emotion to get something moving and traction, you know, at that time, and because when I even hear about, you know, Brianna Taylor with that whole situation, it the it goes back to the inability for the black man to truly be able to protect his, his woman, his family, and you shouldn't be bothered by that. And then it because it even goes up different levels. Because now you're you're seeing you know, people who are doing some things that are underhanded, and then the Attorney General, I was so disappointed at how things went down with that with him not coming out with all of the information. And so and just putting out selective information. So so to me, it's definitely different. But when I keep going back to how, when I say it's levels to this things, because we're gonna need wraparound services, to be able to assist what's going on in our, in our community, we're gonna definitely need that. Because as I'm mentoring, even that young man or a young lady, you know, in the household, I might have to actually go try to reconnect the relationship with the Father, he might be incarcerated, I may have to actually help a mother, that that might be on a substance, you know, different things of that nature, because I think I talked about how they were to parents. And then I was mentoring, you know, for people with the single mother. And then it was big mama, and it was man, it was grandma. And I said, but now I find myself going to more homes dealing with a younger grandmother, that has actually changed the dynamics inside of the home. And so what we're going to do is we're going to have to deal with all of those different aspects with that. And we also have to be reminded that as people as we believe that emotion is being tapped into, because people were hated to see somebody with their knee on somebody's neck for eight min over eight minutes. People are hated for a young lady to be killed while she's in her bed, and then turn around and what happens, the character assassination, they start talking about, you know how she wasn't this, so she was really standing up there. And oh, she was had a drug dealer boyfriend or the expert. I mean, that is all irrelevant, you should be able to be alive. If you go to sleep at night, you should be able to wake up in the morning, you don't saying unless beyond a having a heart attack, or something else of that nature, natural causes, you should be able to wake up with an alarm clock and not to someone kicking your door down and actually shooting up the place. And so and so we deal with this systemic racism that's really happening out here. And so I even look at, you know, the the scandal that they had about all of the celebrities and different things that we're actually paying for their children to get into Do colleges, and they actually work with them. But then it was another system, who used the address of somebody that she knew to have her child to go to a better school. And they gave her two years. That something wrong with that that type of of situation. So what we what we're going to have to do is just like I said, we were going to have to build those bridges, and bring some of the people because I just like this example right here. I don't want just the conscious people to be able to listen to this, you know, saying what what we're doing right now, I don't want just the person that was when the dashiki and that goes to the spoken words, and will snap their finger to listen to this. I want some people that are in the trap house, I want some brothers that you know, what just came home from prison, I want I need money for everybody. And then I also need that person that doesn't even think this significant to them. Because they feel that oh, I'm, I'm making good money on Wall Street, I'm doing them doing excellent. I'm dealing with properties and everything. And we have to bring all of that together is something that you know, that I might not be able to share with my youth, and I need for you to be the one to share it with them. And then I need to go somewhere else. And then so when it talks about it takes a village, it's not just talking about the family, it's talking about individuals from different classes coming together to try to share, you know what's going on because I actually I even had to share that when when we had the will say the uprising, I only want to call it rise. But the uprising here to be honest with you, the uprising was being hijacked. They blamed everything or Black Lives Matter and everything or every brown face out there. But then when I was out there, I saw young Caucasian with the hoodie with the backpacks that was just going around spraying Black Lives Matter on everything and passing window. And I had to actually check it. I got on the pool morning. And I said check this out. And I was like, I don't want to see anybody out here destroying something. And you ain't from this community. If you ain't, you know, I said because I said if you see somebody bus and Mr. Tony barbershop, that cut your hair since she was 10 years old, you know, he not from around here, I see somebody going in this column of restaurant and busting the window and destroying her restaurant, you know, in from a rail here. And I say, and I say you better checkup. And I said nobody's better touch one of our schools. I said, don't touch none of our grocery stores. I say nobody's personal homes. I mean, I'm really went specific. And then I ended when we saw somebody that was actually used and doing these big bricks, that they ended up putting on a corner. So they had a truck that dumped a bunch of bricks on a corner. I mean, that's absurd, right? There was no work being done there. And so I was like, Man Get down from there. And I was like, somebody makes sure that he don't do that. And I was like, we actually had to make somebody put down some stuff took this break came from them and everything. And so what I'm saying is, is that some of the movement has been hijacked by people that have a different agenda for what we're trying to do. And so in essence, some even racist groups, and right wing groups have infiltrated some of them so that they could try to hurt police, or do something so that we could get the blame for it. So we're going to so but only people that are on the ground, know, this was one of those things. They say that and we have to share that with the people that actually are in positions that can do things. Because part of the problem is we have too many people who are in high position to be able to make a difference. But they're making decisions for people who they haven't talked to. So that's like having a doctor that is making this prognosis to a client that he's never seen to actually bring this together so that we can make a difference with it.

Andre L Robinson Jr

Thank you. Thank you to a question from the

Karim Ali

Yeah, you have a question for the audience. And I want to make certain in watching the time as well. Coming up on five o'clock. There were a couple questions. We'll close this out then. Sure. So one of the questions was, so how does today inform our future as value citizens going forward? I mean, can we ever look can we how do we look forward? You know, your future, you know, where we'll be valued in this country? And is that going to come from what we do internally? Or is that going to come from an external something happening externally?

Andre L Robinson Jr

excellent question. And I it's going to be a challenge. I'm all on mute your phone and see if we can, if you can wrap it up in three minutes, whether you are the man of the hour

Jamal Williams

I mean, my, my, my approach in our person where we work is that we just need a broader, more, just more. We need to be very courageous about really rethinking, pondering rethinking, contemplating a way forward, and perhaps our ideas of the past what we're doing now and what it would take to go forward for real, real, psychic liberation. And even I'm getting real psychic liberation. And how do we teach young people that from an early age. And I think that is so important, because we're not that we just have the challenge of ourselves as a people in our current conditions here, and somebody sends people of color all over the world. It is that we have other things that are coming at us, like social technology, that are, you know, are some issues around surveillance and psychic assessments that we don't know are happening. And so there's got to be real, thinking about psychic liberation. But how we free ourselves from certain gradients are actually not about scenar. So in single gradients, we're just I'm black, you know, and because the reason, reason why Black Lives Matter isn't understood, they understand. It's just that people don't want to free themselves and say, let me get the contacts because it takes empathy and compassion. So those are the social technology. Those are things we really do, and work on. And I think we have to spend more time doing that we're spending more time in product technology, like phones and so forth are where we spend the time on social technology, the social ideas are really changed the way we see ourselves live together. I think we need more time to do that, and obviously, takes education to do that. Sure. How do we bring it all together for everyone in the village and beyond?

Andre L Robinson Jr

Thank you Jamal this perfect guy. So Karim, he did it.

Karim Ali

He actually did very well. And I actually want to thank all of our guests today yourself. Mr. Robinson, for I think, a wonderful conversation. We had had more we had more questions as well. And I see some people in the attendee galley that I know. And shout outs to all of them Dr. Franklin, Dr. Abassi, and I saw others out there. I want to give some acknowledgments before we close out for today, MLPI Executive producers, I'm sorry, executive producers for Profound Conversations is the Muslim and Planning Institute, a media expression production is by the network. On the webinar, technical logistics are produced by Erika Christie and Khadija Ali. graphics and animation design are by design cafe. Today's hosts Andre Robison, CEO of the Robeson group, community developers and our guest, Dr. Debbie on scissor, Dr. Ted Sutton and Jamal Williams will have a After After After Action Media package that will be available for everyone that attended. For those who would like to watch this again and send it out to your various networks. That's always appreciate it. Without the support from you in the diversity of like you and institutions, our program would not exist. Next week's episode, we take a look at higher education. And the impacts are COVID-19 with an update from fires Amman from John Hopkins, Bloomberg School of Public Health regarding their master's doctorate program, and public health. Thank you so much for attending. And if you just close up Andre, we say our goodbyes.

Andre L Robinson Jr

I will stay say very, very briefly. It's one of my favorite quotations. My socialist Ashley, Tim R Davis and I share it all the time. And it's actually from a Toni Morrison quote that if you want to fly you got to give up the shit that weighs you down. And so I think this is part of the conversation that we have to go where we actually look at self liberation and self determination is the only real empowerment self empowerment. So I want to thank all the panelists want to thank the listeners And I want to thank the conversation that will continue on in this regard. Because this is a moment that we're not going to get again. So we should not let this particular crisis go to waste in any way. And we certainly can't afford to lose any of our children. Any more of our children, I should say, are the elders that are also in a symbiotic relationship with them. So this is that moment. So thank you all. Thank you. Thank you so much scenario medical agency.