Examining Global Leadership and Ethics

Towards New Models of Human Progress and Development

Modern democracy requires people who can think critically, reason ethically, and participate effectively. Successful organizations must be populated by people who understand group processes and how to guide them while maintaining the proper respect for all participants. Ethical leadership thrives when it is directed by respect for ethical beliefs and values and for the dignity and rights of all people. As we move further into the twenty first century what will global leadership need to embody in order to effectively grapple with the vexing challenges of climate change, earth population density, biodiversity, science, technology and the social-political-economic realities of a post COVID-19 America?

Today's Guest Host is Zarinah Shakir and our Profound Conversationalist is Dr. Rana Dajani.

Topics and Highlights

We are all so similar. We are all human beings. We all have the same origin.

I consider myself a human. A global citizen. Wanting to serve the whole world. 

We are all responsible for the community around us.

Learning is beyond the classroom. It continues your entire life up until your last minute of life.

Inspiring a community leaves them with the new mindset of “I can”

What does it mean to be an Islamic Feminist?

What does it take to create a Covid-19 vaccine? Who should get it first?

Storytellers have preserved culture for thousands of years.

How do you reach out to other women and encourage them and let them know ‘you can do this too’ ?

Profound Conversations Executive Producers are the Muslim Life Planning Institute, a national community building organization whose mission is to establish pathways to lifelong learning and healthy communities at the local, national and global level.   MLPN.life

The Profound Conversations podcast is produced by Erika Christie www.ErikaChristie.com

Full Transcript

Zarinah Shakir

Salaam alaikum, my name is Zarinah Shakir. And welcome to Profound Conversations, something that I think a lot of us have these days. And I would like to introduce our guests today, who before I introduce her, I would like to say, is a rather amazing woman. And let's say she can multitask on so many things. Dr. Rana Dajani, welcome to the program, Profound Conversations. And let's just begin.

Dr. Rana Dajani

Oh, thank you very much. I'm so excited to be here to share and to learn.

Zarinah Shakir

Inshallah. Dr. Dajani, can we do just a very, very brief bit of background, little introduction, something that you and I spoke about very briefly. And this is not something that others are aware of. But I asked you, what did you think you want it to be? Because I'm going to explain who you are or what you listed in your bio. But what did you want to be when you were about five or 10 years old? When you really began to think about what your career goals would be for you?

Dr. Rana Dajani

That's a great question. That takes me back way, way, way back. I think I grew up reading a lot of stories and novels and science books. So I had an image in my mind, I think of being a pioneer, somebody who discovers new things, and I think it was more towards the actual discovery, you know, like exploring a mountaintop or going to Mars or, you know, down in the deep ocean or Antarctica, pushing the limits the boundaries, that was my dream.

Zarinah Shakir

At that age, really? Oh, yeah,

Dr. Rana Dajani

yeah. That's why I try retrospectively to kind of connect the dots and say, Ah, so I couldn't travel physically. So I thought, if I go and start exploring cells, it would be like pushing that frontier, but inside the cell inside, working with the molecules.

Zarinah Shakir

So let us let me at least begin to speak to who you are and what I've read about you. You have a PhD in Molecular Cellular Biology. Now say that 10 times, Molecular Cellular Biology, but also, you've traveled to numerous colleges and universities, you've taught at many places, and you had the opportunity to teach in various areas, I want to at least do just a little background by saying that you have a book that we're going to kind of go back and forth through the book, because this explains why and who you are today, five scars, five scars, why don't you explain to us what five scarves mean to you?

Dr. Rana Dajani

Yeah, so you know, a lot of people when they introduce themselves, they say they play multiple roles. And in English, when you talk about your different roles, you talk about wearing multiple hats. And since I don't wear a hat, I wear a scarf. I called my book five scars to represent the five roles that I play in my life. So so the first score for the first role that I'm the most proud of actually, is being a mother, because nobody can replace me in being a mother. But every other role can be replaced to a certain extent. And I think we need to bring this up front for both fathers and mothers, that the most important thing we can do is bring up the next generation and do it right. So that's my first car. My second scarf or second role is being an educator. So actually, before becoming a professor and doing my PhD, I was a school teacher for 10 years. There was no Ph. D. programs in Jordan and and so I became a school teacher and taught science from grade one to grade 12. And to me, although some may think Oh, you didn't get your dream, to later to me, that was retrospectively that was a very important part of my life understanding children, families, teachers administration, because the second most important role any human being can play for humanity is being a teacher. Because kids if they're not spending their time at home with their parents, they're spending it in school with their teachers. So again, my my hat off to every teacher and every educator, because their job is not easy. I know that, but it's the most important thing that they can serve humanity. Yeah. Go ahead for it.

Zarinah Shakir

Well, let me just let me just stop right there because Being a teacher and being a mother, pretty much all mothers are teachers as our fathers. And that's what I usually say when I've taught school to people that you're when a parent comes in and says, Well, I thought you are teacher. I am her teacher, but you are her first teacher. So for you, mother being first, I get it. And I do believe others will get it. Let me just also now say, you are half Palestinian and half Syrian. You are you live and have lived a long time in Jordan. So tell us a little bit about how you got to Jordan, and a little bit about about your background as Palestinian and Syrian, and what that actually means to you today and in your particular positions, because we do want to get to some of the other things that Profound Conversations focuses on.

Dr. Rana Dajani

Yeah, that's a that's a great question. Actually, in the Middle East, were these countries that you mentioned, Syria, Palestine, Jordan, and we can add to it all in Lebanon, in other countries exists today. These countries 70 years ago, did not exist. It was one big country. There were no borders, these borders, these lines were created by the colonizer after they left and divided this up into Giorgio and Syrian Palestinian Lebanese. So therefore, it's very natural. Most people who live in this region are a mix of cultures and ethnicities, just like me, it's just that you know, to bring it up and talk about it, is just to share a lesson of how how we're all sort of similar, we're all human beings, we all come from the same origin. And we need to celebrate our diversity while acknowledging how much alike we are, so that we can work together. And so going forward from this kind of mentality, I feel, you know, I consider myself a human, a global citizen, that belongs to the whole world, and wanting to serve the whole world of humanity starting with, you know, my closest circle, which is where I live, my neighborhood, my town, my city, my country, and then the region around it, and then the whole globe and the universe, right? You can think as big as we want. So that's, that's how I look at it. And actually, this, this reminds me of a, I probably, this relates. So usually, when I'm talking about the five scarves, when I come to the last one, which is the fifth one, we'll talk about the other two, three, and four later. But when I come to the last one, I usually tell people, I'm not going to tell you go read the book, and then you'll know, but this time, I'm going to tell you. So the last one was actually, I received an email a couple of years ago telling me that I was chosen as one of the most influential female scientists in the Islamic world, which is like 1.7 billion people. So that was kind of an honor. And believe me a responsibility. But as I was going through the email, they had given a title for each one of us. So there was the cardiologist, a mathematician, and I'm going down to see what did they give me as a title? And lo and behold, they gave me the title of Islamic communist. And I said, No, you can't do that. Because I'm not a semi feminist. I'm a, I'm a scientist, I'm a social entrepreneur, mother, teacher, but I, I never intended to be labeled in that way. So they refuse to change it. And the result was that I embarked on a journey of to redefine what that means, according to my own terms, you know, many times in life, you get labeled with terms and, and stereotypes, and I didn't want that to happen. So I kind of reclaimed it. And that was the reason I wrote my book. It was to to reclaim what that means. And today, no, I am not an Islamic feminist. I am a human being, right, who happens to be a Muslim. And what happens to be a scientist and and who, who defends all human rights, including woman because they have been disenfranchised and treated unjustly for a long time all over the world, now in particular, in one culture, rather than the other. So I invite you to read the book and to learn more about my views on that. But that's just back to your point about not being labeled being a human being and celebrate that.

Zarinah Shakir

Well, let me just say to Dr. Johnny, I consider myself as an Islamic feminist. So when I saw that and read that and heard you speak on TED talks, I thought, okay, so she doesn't want to be an Islamic feminist or doesn't want to be labeled as one. And I don't want to be labeled but that I can say, is part of who I am. So it's okay. You know, whether you choose to do this or not, let us at least get to the number three and number four, in terms of the scarfs so that we can then move on into some of the areas that you have. Absolutely, and profoundly become almost an expert in. So scarf number three, what was that?

Dr. Rana Dajani

Left being a scientist, I get a kick in a thrill, just like I told you earlier growing up, wanting to explore nature around me being curious, asking questions, which is part of our evolution, right to be curious. And that's how we survived as a species. So that led me to to study my PhD. And that dream stayed with me. And remember, I said, I wasn't able to go into a Ph. D. program too. Later after I got married, and I had four kids. And then when the when the opportunity, offered yourself in a Fulbright scholarship, I went with my husband and four children to the US and did my PhD and came back, older, but still young and heart. And I became a scientist. And I actually were the world experts in two fields. So one of them is I study ethnic populations. And I look at the complex diseases, where there's an interplay between genetics, and between and the environment. So its nature and nurture working together. And how does that manifest biologically? And if something goes wrong, how does that make a disease and I work on diabetes, and we discovered a novel gene risk factor for diabetes in these two populations. And we were able to publish in nature, which is kind of really big for any scientists around the world. The second field of expertise is we study the impact of trauma on epigenetics. So you're you inherit your DNA from your parents, but also, as you are exposed to the environment, your DNA, the how your DNA is expressed, can change as a result of interaction with the environment, whether it's your lifestyle, what you eat, how much you exercise, or if you're exposed to trauma. And in our part of the world, unfortunately, there's a lot of trauma for more displacement, again, you know, being refugees. And so I studied that kind of trauma, and how it impacts the physiology of a human being, and then how it can impact your DNA. And we're asking now, the really, really important question. If I'm exposed to trauma, do I transfer that epi genetic signature to my children to my grandchildren? And can that be positive, not negative, because always people are looking for the negative, you know, what's bad, and so on. And I am an optimist. My husband says, I see a an ocean in a drop of water. So I want to see, as humans we've evolved, we've always been, you know, going through multiple crises, yet we have been able to be resilient and survive. So I want to look at this transmission of this epigenetic signature, can it favor, positive, optimistic resilience kind of traits or features in future generations. And this will help us not just understand how the trauma affects us, but it will make it help us understand to develop better interventions and programs to help prevent escalation, or any manifestation of disease.

Zarinah Shakir

Okay, so let let us pursue a little bit of this science, and where we are today in 2020. And this pandemic, and how, what you have researched and what you've discovered, and diabeetus is also one of those unfortunate diseases, I have to call it a disease, an ailment that people have to be mindful that this virus and other things can affect them on a global level. What can you say? Or what do you say, Dr. Johnny, about your work and how you can somehow get with other scientists, and and the people, let's say, some of the leaders in this world to explain what we need to do?

Dr. Rana Dajani

That's a very important question. And I think it's especially now it's very relevant with COVID-19 and the pandemic all over the world, I think what we've come to realize is a number of points. First, is that a scientist, we have a responsibility to employ our skills and expertise and trying to understand the origins of the pandemic. So this is strictly scientifically right, how it happens, how it spreads, and therefore how can we prevent it, whether it's, you know, developing vaccines, or therapy, and so on. So this is one thing and I think the world is really going forward putting all the efforts together, and we're creating teams across the globe, because everybody's affected. There's not just one country and not the other. So the so the pandemic has a silver lining, and that all scientists are coming together. And putting all their efforts together and publishing is very fast and testing is very fast and so on. So that's a very important thing. And because the whole world is affected, kind of this rift between developed and developing are rich and poor is kind of melting away because we're all suffering the same thing. And even in terms of behavior, we see countries who are termed developing are actually behaving in terms of protection. against the pandemic precautions are doing much better than other countries who, in quotes are more developed. And this is speaks to culture and humanity and the richness of different cultures around the world. And that's a lesson learned, also, but at the same time, we've had a lot of fake news coming out as well. And I'm sure because of the interactivity and the digital technology and the internet, it's easy for anybody to dump anything online, without anybody to really regulate what's out there. So that creates kind of a negative thing for the general public. Who do we trust, right? Who should we listen to? And again, that's a responsibility for scientists to actually be out there to be vocal to be good communicators, to present resources, authentic resources, and to keep reminding, not just the general public, but general avenues, the media, of what is what is right, what is true, and, and to do that effectively. So those two things are, to me are what I see coming out of the pandemic going forward. And also, the third thing I want to say, you know, the pandemic is not new in the sense that there's always been pandemics in the past that have happened, right? We know the 1918, flu, you know, other the plague in the 19th century, and so on. So this is not new, it's just that in our memory, it's new, because we're all living it now. It's about what can we learn from this going forward? What is really important, you know, it helped me reshuffle my priorities, who am I, what do I want from this world, and then how to help others right how to lead what is important. And then it puts in focus, you know, there was a lot of challenges we were facing as a global community, whether an education and health and nutrition, in an equality. And I think what the pandemic has done is really focused everything given clarity, because in the past, people would say, oh, you know, we can't fix this. It's too expensive. It's too difficult. There's too much bureaucracy. But with COVID-19, we've come to see that a lot of this bureaucracy, a lot of these excuses or barriers actually disappeared, because now there's a will, there's no other way. And therefore we are able to work from home, you are able to do conferences on Zoom, we are able to reimagine education. So I think I look again, this is a silver lining to me, going forward, like how can we use this to do what in the past seem to be impossible? And to move forward?

Zarinah Shakir

Let me know, let me stop you there. And let us go back a little bit. In your background. I'm, I must admit that I'm not completely familiar with what molecular cell biology is. But my question, going along with your background, and what you do in terms of science, and your research, we're all faced with trying to not us, we're not doctors, we're not scientists, but you are, and we're waiting for or many people are waiting globally for a vaccine. Could you tell us briefly briefly, what it will take what it takes to come to the end result of a vaccine? And I'm going to kind of put you on the spot right now. And who should get it first?

Dr. Rana Dajani

Oh, wow. Okay, these are really complex questions. Again, just as a disclaimer, yes, I am a molecular cell biologist. But I do not create I'm not my field is not working on vaccines. So I'll just share what I know from what I've read, because I like to keep abreast of what's happening. But by no means I'm not the expert on development of vaccines. But in general, in order to develop a vaccine, there's a number of steps, right, you need to, first of all, develop it in a lab, make sure it works. And then and there's multiple already efforts doing that, using different technologies and different approaches, there's not just one approach for developing a vaccine without going into detail. But then the second step is actually testing it on humans to make sure that it's safe. And that takes time because you want to, you want to make sure you have enough people, you want to make sure that it's safe for people. And it's not about safe for two days, you want to make safe, it's sure it's safe for a period of time, because you don't know what the consequences are, the side effects are and that takes time as well. And usually any vaccine takes five to 10 years to develop. And now everything is being accelerated because of the, of the impact of the of the pandemic. And because of the resources and money and funding and capacity being thrown at it to make it faster, but there's always a limit of physiology to test these vaccines, but then even then, even with all the acceleration of producing a vaccine, you have the next step of of shipping it, you know, making it available to the 7 billion people around the world. You know, it's it's about mass production. It's about keeping it you know, some of these have to be at a certain temperature so that it doesn't go bad. And then you need to transport it and then you need to deliver it to different places around the world. So these are other steps that people don't think about. They think you've got a vaccine that's it. No, there's a lot of there's many other things that's on the way that needs to be done. And so yes, it's going to be accelerated compared to normal vaccine production. Maybe it'll be done in a year or two. And I'm sure everybody's following the news to exactly when it's going to come out. To your second second part of your question, who gets it first? That's a very important question. And again, this is not my field, this would need bioethicists, right, and as well as those who produced the vaccines and the availability of the vaccine, to come together and decide ethically, as well as all the other limitations and restrictions who gets it first. And actually, we ran a group in Georgia and ran a simulation of a survey, asking people who would you give the vaccine to right, if a vaccine was developed? There was a survey about bioethics. And and it was a discussion, you know, there was like choices one, would you give the vaccine to children first? Or would you give it to elderly people since they are more susceptible? Or would you give it to those who have money? Or would you give it to people, health workers who are on the front line who are more exposed? Or would you give it to those who, who have very important jobs? Right? So physicians or teachers or you know, who can you know, contribute to society? It was very interesting to see the range of answers, which vary the cross, right, or? And then one, one really interesting thing that came out of that survey, because there was a like, Do you have another reason there was that question. And something came out saying that one thing we that wasn't considered in the survey is giving a reason to those who take care of the family, the parents, and then the survey that was developed, actually, in a Western perspective, that was not put as one of the choices. So this, the importance of community, and support and family is very, very important, and we mustn't overlook that as well.

Zarinah Shakir

So let me just ask you, as a result of this survey, and who you and I happen to be Muslims, and I'm not saying that you give the vaccine or anything, just to Muslims, but looking at for, to me, the bigger picture, God, Allah, and what we are required to do. Um, and there unfortunately, seem to be a number of people that don't quite understand what it is that Muslims do that we do have a task on this earth and what you've already presented, were human beings, or are we just being human? What does that actually mean? So can you just say to us, what being human is, and what your bullets say? What your requirements what you follow as the principles for your life, we know that the Quran is part of who we all are as Muslims. But how do you live this?

Dr. Rana Dajani

Yeah, that's a very important question. I said, when I say I'm a human being similar to the 7 billion human beings on earth, I think it speaks to how we evolved as a species, how we exist in this world, part of our existence is that we have developed a brain and a conscience. And this results in us asking questions and being curious, and asking questions, eventually, will results like why are we here? What is the purpose of our existence? What is my role? And I'm sure many of us have actually re asked that question, during the pandemic, all isolated at home, with everything changing, you reassess everything. And I think what, in my case, I consider the Quran, which is what Islam is, is a guide on to answer those questions. Why do I exist? And to me? The answer is, is to make this world a better place for all of humanity. Right? Regardless of your religion, regardless of your culture, your background to who you are, how can I help humanity, to have a better life, using the ethics and the values that my religion shares with me, and by the way, the ethics and the values in my religion, Islam are shared universal values, you know, do unto others as you want to join yourself, be honest, right? Take care of others. These are universal values. But to me, Islam has put them in a in a very practical, logical way. Because in Islam, we celebrate the brain, we celebrate responsibility. We celebrate humanity, we celebrate who we are biologically, and I think those are beautiful things that I see in them, and that, you know, incentivizes me and gives me a clear path on how I should conduct myself going forward. So I'll give you an example. So some of the values I grew up on which stem from my religion are that you are responsible. We are all responsible for the community around us, not just our own selves. And so from that kind of feeling of responsibility is what led me to my fourth scarf by the way, which is creating a program to help children read for fun. So I'm a scientist, I have nothing to do with this. But that feeling of responsibility came from my religion that if I have knowledge, or experience, expertise or skills, I can't keep it with me, I have to give it to others. And another value that stemmed from religion in my upbringing as a Muslim, is that what matters is you have to try, you know, it doesn't, you don't have to succeed, all you have to do is try you know, your intention to do good. And that's so freeing, you know, then you're not scared to fail, you're not scared to make a mistake, because what matters is your sincere intention to do good. And to me, that was wonderful. That was amazing. That's what helped me be a better human being a better scientist, a better teacher, a better parents.

Zarinah Shakir

So let us go to scarf number four, which you just alluded to a moment ago. But that is part of where I wanted to go before we went back to the fifth scar, and explain what number four is.

Dr. Rana Dajani

So number four, I'm a social entrepreneur, of course, I realized that later, retrospectively, what I did is, again, stemming from my values that are come from my mind from Islam, I, you know, when you change from one country to another, or city to another, you see the world in a different way. And I realized that children in my community, and then later on, I realized all over the world, by the way, they don't read for fun, they read, they all know how to read, they go to school, but they don't read for fun, you know, that fun under the covers, you can't wait to finish the book, that kind of reading is what allows a child to reap the benefits of reading, you know, to widen the imagination to increase your vocabulary. So you're better at expressing yourself, to learn about other cultures and other people. So you can start developing solutions for your own challenges inside your neighborhood. Or you become the hero you read about because you get the courage from the story to do it. Even if people think that what are you doing, you know, it's, I'm, I'm going to be that hero. And so therefore, reading for fun, to me is fundamentally important. For changing people. I mean, our mantra is changing mindsets to reading to create change makers. And so my scientific mind started asking, so how do i Why don't children read for fun, right, and especially as Muslims, the first word is F clock right reads and not read in the sense of you can read letters, no read be meaning reaping the benefits of reading, you know, for it to have an impact on you to change you. And so I with observations and research, I realized, children are read for fun, because they don't love to read, they're not motivated. So then the question became, so how do I help children fall in love with reading, and I realized, the way a child falls in love with reading is when they have a role model. So their parents or caregivers are reading aloud to them because they enjoy reading. That's what's lacking, at least in my part of the world, and in many parts of the world. And so I found a solution, right? That it's every parent should read aloud. So I thought, so what do I do? Do I knock on the door? Of every parent? I mean, that's not practical. Do I tell the government you know, you should pass a law every parent should read allow them, that doesn't mean people are going to listen. So I thought, again, back to my values, I thought, you know, you need to be the change you want to see in the world, like Gandhi said, or like Prophet Muhammad said, you know, you're the Guardian, take care of your community. So I read to my kids, but that's not enough. That's just my kids. I wanted to do it to the wider community. And I couldn't sleep at night, because I felt this responsibility, because I know what to do. And so my family, my husband and kids, we came together and we created like a small project, where we thought we're gonna carry, gather the kids in the neighborhood and read aloud to them in a public space, in Jordan, for there's a mosque in every neighborhood. So we thought, why don't we use the mosque, you know, it's empty half the time. It's got a carpet, it's got a bathroom, why don't we use it. And so what happened is, the Imam got so excited as well. And he announced that we're going to read aloud, and parents thought it was about education reading or because it's in a mosque, they thought it was religion, but it had nothing to do with either. It was about reading for fun. So it was about, you know, stories of the child who wants to run away, doesn't want to kiss his auntie, you know, those kinds of stories. And it was in the, in their native language. And so the kids came, and they fell in love with with the books, and they would take them home, and they would start reading to themselves to their siblings, or they would beg their parents to read to them. So we kind of flipped the equation rather than the parent as dragging the kid to read it was the children begging their parents to read and then the children started demanding books instead of toys wanting to go to school, because they realize they could unlock the Magic by learning how to read more.

Zarinah Shakir

Okay, let me just stop you though. Let me just let you know because I understand that your program we love reading is in just under 60 countries, but let me also say that I am and I know a number of people. We're actually called storytellers. Storytellers is pretty much the same thing that you You're saying for people, particularly for young people, but even for adults, even for people who are in nursing homes and other places that just want someone to read to them. So what you done, you have a solution that you have come upon, but it was there. It's already been done for hundreds of years, but in a different manner, not necessarily from a book. In parts of West Africa, you consider what's called a griot, a bill, that's a storyteller. And we and a lot of cultures have been passed down through the storytelling process, your program being in other countries. Does this help young people, not just reading, but as I think I read, that you said about learning, but also leading? Where does leader leadership come in with what you've developed?

Dr. Rana Dajani

Absolutely, what you said that we so the program, we eventually call it the three love reading is exactly it's an ancient, it's an ancient thing that we all do without thinking but you as an all things around us, and things that are so simple, no brainers. People forget about it. Oh, they don't realize how important it is because they think anything important has to be fancy and complex. Yet, it can be as simple as doing what your grandmother used to do. And that's what we love reading is all about. And that's why it succeeded, by the way, because it's so simple. It's just a framework read aloud to kids in your native language, anywhere you want. That's it, which anybody can do. So it's not just a parent, it's teachers, it's youth, it's grandparents, all reclaiming themselves, finding their inner potential and outer potential, or I like to say, they have really discovered how to read literally and figuratively found their voice, because now they're reading to kids, but they've realized that they can, they have become leaders in their own rights in their own community. And especially that most of them are women, these women have gone beyond and found better jobs created their own programs or projects, and, and become more resilient, and less stressed and anxious, and gone ahead, gaining respect from the local community, and all on a volunteer basis. And because the program fosters this feeling of agency, I'm doing it for myself, I'm doing it for me because they own the program. So that's another secret sauce of We love reading, as we call it, is because you know, most programs are about employing people, or asking people to do something we know we love reading is about people wanting to do it for themselves. And that's the difference. That's a thin line between a feeling that ownership that allows the program to be sustainable, even four and five years after people have taken the training. And so the both the children and the adults, fall in love with reading, discover their inner potential and, and therefore become lifelong learners. Because learning is beyond the classroom and beyond the age of 18. It goes on to the last minute of our lives. And this is how the new imagination of education is coming out to be especially during COVID-19. And this is the vision that we're looking at. And it's about building that resilience for the children and adults. And that goes back to our logo now is changing mindsets, through reading, to create changemakers, who don't have to wait for somebody to come and save them. They can save themselves, they can come up with their own solutions, because they know better the root causes of the challenges they face in their everyday life. And therefore they create solutions that they own, that are sustainable going forward. So that's what we love reading is in a nutshell. And I want to add one thing we've included in it is research. So because I'm a scientist, I wanted to include scientists, of course, it's not my field to study cognitive skills or, you know, mental health or resilience. So we've invited scientists from around the world from you know, well known universities like Yale or brown or University of Chicago to come and study we'll have readings impact on both on the children and on the adults and on the wider community. Because what we've seen is that the community has has now has been had a mindset of I can, you know, and that's so important going forward to help cope with ever all the challenges we're facing in the pandemic and beyond the 21st century.

Unknown Speaker

Right. Dr. Johnny? I just thought of something while you were speaking about all of that. Have you been to any of the HBCUs the historically black colleges and universities in the United States? At least one?

Dr. Rana Dajani

Yes. So I visited one actually, a few years ago and 2014 2014 It was an all woman's black university. And I was hosted by the President and it was a wonderful, wonderful experience. And I would love to go again and visit and share and learn because actually I'm learning more than anything else by listening to the different you know, opinions and experiences of have different people.

Zarinah Shakir

And the reason I mentioned what the HBCUs is just a little background to you and to others, one of the horrible things that have happened to black people in America, African Americans, or whatever name people choose to be or be called Reading, people were lynched and executed for doing that, if you were even in possession of a book, it could be the Bible, it was definitely not probably the Quran at that time. But any book in a black person's hand was a, something where they could be killed for that. And I say HBCUs, because that was part of their mission was to teach us to read and write, there are a number of schools that are basically around vocational skills. But he's even with vocational skills, you have to know how to read and write a manual or instructions or something. And so I'm offering to you the opportunity and the possibility of also looking at your program and seeing how perhaps some of the HBCUs may be able to use this and come out into the communities and assist others to learn how to read. Because just like where you were coming from in Jordan, and other countries, there are a number of young people in America and and in the West, that do not read some of them. It's not even about reading for fun. They don't read at all. But that's not to say that they can't, because people have to read their cell phones, they read their text messages. That's reading. So with that being said, I want to ask you, what was the most difficult thing for you? As you grown up, and you're an adult to grasp? What was the hardest thing for you to be able to excel or succeed in?

Dr. Rana Dajani

Oh, well, that's a that's a very deep question. You know, I think I think what my answer to that, is, of course, I've encountered a lot of difficult situations, I can't pinpoint one because I think the reason is, the way I the way I approach anything that's difficult, is by turning it into an opportunity in my mind. And maybe that comes because I have a wide imagination, I grew up reading a lot. But any, I when I look back, I can't find any difficult situation, I can only find a an opportunity that I learned from and kept going. That's how I would define that difficulty. So for example, I wanted to become a scientist. And I couldn't I couldn't go into a Ph. D. program. In Jordan, there weren't any. And when I even got accepted to go to England, I didn't have the money, so I couldn't go. So that's something difficult. How do you cope with it? So what I did is I thought, Okay, I'm going to be the best teacher in the world. And I became a school teacher. And I made it the best experience ever. So it wasn't all young, I'm going to be a teacher. No, it was, whoa, I'm going to be the best teacher. And then and then I bet I kept that dream going. Or, for example, if I apply for a grant for We love reading, or for my science, and it doesn't work. I don't say Oh, my God, I thought, you know, I know nine out of 10, I'm going to lose. And to me, this is an opportunity to learn from the reviewers, what was lacking? How can I write this better. And because I embrace that, I don't call call it failure, I embrace that opportunity to learn. It doesn't beat me down. It's just I, you know, it helps raise me to learn more and to go forward. So I think it's all about, you know, how you look at things, how you perceive things in your mind, that helps you keep on being positive, learning from that experience and moving forward. And I always tell my students, you know, you have to make mistakes. If you're not making mistakes, that means you're too comfortable, you're in the wrong place. And so but don't make the same mistake twice. You can make a different mistake every day. That's fine. So that's how I look at it going forward.

Zarinah Shakir

You are I think this being one of my last questions to you. I want you to tell us, what is it like for people who have lived, let's say, in some of the places, Syria, Jordan? I do. I think I've read that Jordan and Kenya, and I think even Greece in Lesbos had some of the largest refugee camps. What is that experience? Very briefly, like for someone to try and just navigate themselves into a normal life?

Dr. Rana Dajani

Well, thank you for the question and to do it justice. I cannot really answer it because I have not lived in a refugee camp myself. So whatever I say is going to be second hand, and I would not do justice and I don't have the right to explain what what it feels like or, or anything because I haven't lived that just out of respect.

Zarinah Shakir

When you perhaps we're, yeah,

Dr. Rana Dajani

yeah, no, I mean, I have to say that as a disclaimer first, because this is a responsibility going forward. And I also want to add that the situation of refugees differs from camp to camp, from country to country. And so they're not comparable, and some are much worse than others. I think Jordan is one of the the GA there, Fiji camps in Georgia, are much better than compared to other camps in Kenya, or Uganda or Greece. Jordan is much, much better. Okay, so I've only, so I know Jordan. And that sense, regardless, just being displaced, and not having security, and being in a place where you're scared, or you don't know what's going to make me scared, not because you're going to be attacked, but scared because you don't know what's going to happen in the future. We don't realize that we all live, we know we're in our home, we know what we're going to worry about. But these people, they don't know what the future holds for them. This is really devastating, and very, very hard. And, and I cannot even imagine, to describe it or even relate to it. But to me going forward, it's about how what, what we can do together to help build that feeling of agency, and resilience, and to remove that feeling of hopelessness because as humans, as we evolved with, there has always been wars and fights, right. And we've been able to be resilient and to survive. So we need to help people remember that, and to go forward in and help each other positively. And most importantly, I'm going to add this last thing is how can we use science to help people cope with the stress and trauma, what we've seen in Jordan is that when you explain the science to their kids, to the parents, and explain to them what's happening in their brain, what's happening in their psychology, in their physiology, it helps them realize that it's not their fault, if they're feeling anxious or stressed that this is normal response of the body, and that this can be taken care of whether it's through interventions, or medicine, or whatever. But it's normal, and it's natural. And together, if we come together, we can help each other going forward.

Zarinah Shakir

Okay, so I see, Karim is there. I just had one question. Last question.

Karim Ali

Oh, we we want you to come back to your to to close out with your questions. This isn't to stop you from your interview. But if you want to ask that. Yeah, I just had a couple questions just to give you a break. And if you like, thank you. So So Dr. Dajani question that we have from the audience is, how does the study of science lend to our understanding and implementation of effective leadership?

Dr. Rana Dajani

Oh, that's a very important question as well. You know, today, science is actually in every sector, in every discipline, in the past day, but people think what the science has to do with leadership, but we know today, no, they are related. Because leadership in the end is a mix of nurture, and nature. It's your genetics, and it's also your environment, and what you're exposed to how you how you learn to deal with, with, with failure, how you learn to deal with people from coming from different backgrounds, or different psychologies, and so on. So leadership is a is a real science. And today, I'm at the Jefferson School of leadership at the University of Richmond, which is also core in teaching leadership, and one of the first schools that actually focuses on that. So we can learn a lot about our physiology to understand the chemicals going on in our brain, our genes, but we can also learn that we are not held account to our genes, that there's a huge potential in nurture and how we can learn how we can emulate how we can look at role models, whether negative to learn not to be that way, or positive how to be that way. And to develop our own, you know, figure out things on our own through trial and error. So yeah, sciences is core, and we need to include more of that going as well.

Karim Ali

Yeah, another question. Thank you. Another question. Interesting. Nature versus Nurture. The question is, are we headed in the right direction with our current trends in artificial intelligence?

Dr. Rana Dajani

Yeah, that's a that's another billion dollar question. And that's not just artificial intelligence, actually, it's the ethics of of everything, right? Whether it's in CRISPR, which won the Nobel Prize last week, in terms of, you know, gene editing and stem cell technology, or artificial intelligence, for that matter. So so the way I look at it is that science will always advance right? It's like a train, which is moving forward. I think what the, what the world should do is to get on that train, so that they can help guide that train in the right direction because the trains moving, we just need to help on. And when I say we I'm talking about all the stakeholders. So we're talking about religious leaders we're talking about by Ephesus, we're talking about lawyers, we're talking about families, patients, as students, you know, every member of the community is important and counts and should have a say in how things going forward, go forward. So it's not about stopping it. It's about guiding it going forward, and using the ethical, universal values that we all share as humanity in guiding this so that we can benefit humanity, taking what's good, avoiding what's bad.

Karim Ali

Yeah. The last question I'll ask there were a few more. But this is a little lengthy. But it says as we move further into the 21st century, what will global leadership need to embody in order to effectively grapple with the vexing challenges of say climate change? Population density, biodiversity? And some of the other economic realities? Post COVID-19?

Dr. Rana Dajani

Okay, um, so that there's no simple answer to that, but I can tell you different factors that influence what a good global good leadership should look like going forward, what first thing we need to, and we're gonna work backwards. So any global leader should it should be elected by the people. That's very, very important, right? But again, you need to educate the people, right? To make sure that they have the right knowledge, the right skills, so that when they elect when they choose, they choose, right, because we have to respect the people and their collective choices. So our onus is on educating them, so educating the masses, to raise that level, so that when they choose a global leader, they they choose right, then the global leader, or the group at the top should always be in touch with with the experts. So when we're talking about the fields of science, like climate change, or biodiversity and so on, the scientists should always be experts giving advice to the leader on what are the scientific facts, what do we know what what we don't know, and advising on the best way forward, learning from experience and going back and forth. So also, so having those experts, and and again, it's about having the universal values upheld and justice and fairness to all and not just fairness to a certain sector of the community and not to others, you're either everybody's equal, or nobody's equal. And so upholding those values is very important, and to all humanity, and not favoring not just any ethnic group over other any religion over the other. It's about equality for all respecting all upholding those universal values. So those I mean, that's the complicated, short answer to your question going forward.

Karim Ali

Thank you. Back to you, sir. Yeah.

Zarinah Shakir

Okay. Well, part of what you just asked Corinne. But what I want to do, also ask Dr. Giuliani about the award that you actually received, and how do you? What was your response when you first heard that you had won that award? And my 11? I have a second part to that question. But I'd like you to answer this part first.

Dr. Rana Dajani

Well, when I when I heard, I mean, it was, it was an honor. But it wasn't for me, it was for all the, to me, it was for all the women and men and youth and children who have been reading aloud to their children in different neighborhoods around the world, the wheel of reading ambassadors, they are the ones who are the program. And that word is for them. I'm just the catalyst. I'm just the you know, the person in the middle who's been able to help it happen. But actually it is for them. So it was very humbling. Because it to me, and it made me feel that I have a law, huge responsibility to spread it more, and to reach every child in every neighborhood, because I feel it's a crime for a child to grow up not discovering his or her own inner potential, and the outer potential around them. So it was kind of like, okay, we've got a lot of work yet to do

Zarinah Shakir

with the idea that you have with, we love reading, or some of the books about climate change, or let's say, artificial intelligence robots, a number of things that are going on in our world this day, these days, and how do you some of the young people that you have read to or others that may have gotten back to you? How have they responded?

Dr. Rana Dajani

So yeah, many of the storybooks that We created to enrich the children's literature and Arabic are actually about, I mean, they're primarily for fun, but they have underlying things. So we have a whole series about the environment. In terms of preserving the environment and climate change, we have a series of books on empathy, and the gender and disabilities and bullying and refugees to respect and social inclusion. And we have some about science and robots and you know, doing experiments and things and similar situations. And we're actually now creating some children books about COVID-19, to raise awareness among children as well. And of course, we've seen that the impact of just reading a story is very powerful, much more powerful. If you want to change the child's attitude or behavior, if you can just sit around with them and read a book, and give them that book to read and look at the pictures. We've shown through research that we published recently, doing a pre and post evaluation of the children that their attitudes and practices, for example, towards the environment, improved 80%, which is much more efficient than TV ads, and billboards and which are very costly, and do not necessarily change the behavior of the children.

Zarinah Shakir

Do most of the books that you've recommended, or that have been given to you and your program? Do our most of them with illustrations and pictures or photos?

Dr. Rana Dajani

Oh, yeah, of course. Because if they're going to fall in love with reading, especially on an early stage, there's just a little bit of text, and then a lot of pictures. And this helps, even if the parents are can't read, they can make up the story from the pictures. And even if the child still can't read, they can, you know, just lose themselves. And they're imagining the pictures that they're looking at, and makeup stories going forward. So this is that's the magic of reading it. But the whole issue is to associate a book in a text with fun, even if you don't understand what the text is, that's okay. But it sets up the child. It fosters that curiosity, Kindles, it tickles it so that they keep on you know, I want to learn how to read, that's why they want to go to school, not because the school is any better, or the teacher is better or trained. It's because they they have that motivation. They want to unlock the magic. It's like basic business marketing, right? If somebody wants something, they will do anything to move Landon, and earth to get to it. And that's what we do. We instill that motivation, that by helping children fall in love with,

Zarinah Shakir

well, just a couple more things that I wanted to actually ask you. And one has to do with being a woman? And how do you reach out to other women, besides your books, what you've written? And perhaps articles? How do you somehow encourage them? And let them no, and you can do this too? How do what do you say?

Dr. Rana Dajani

So first of all, I mean, I being a role model, I think is very powerful. To speak about your story, write your story. So people hear about it, and I tell, so I tell and when I talk or speak or share whether I'm teaching or you know, walking or in a car or in a train, or nobody's in a plane anymore these days. I share with my neighbors, right, I talk about I talk about what I do, and I share with them. And I think the most powerful message you can get across is when you are the manifestation of that message. We learned through examples we learn through stories, it's about sharing stories, but what I tell my students is that everybody's important, you know, every human being is unique, unique, because their DNA is unique. Your DNA is different from any DNA of any human being that ever existed, will ever exist. Even if you're identical twins, you grew up in slightly different environments, you're different. And so because of that difference, you are, you have something special to give to the world. And, and don't let the world miss out on especially you are. And so I asked them to share their story to write about their perspective, how they perceive the world, how they look at it. And, and, and and that they owe it, they owe it not just to themselves, they owe to the next generation to write about themselves. Otherwise, somebody else will come in and write about us, or you or me, and they don't know who we are. So we owe it to the next generation to give them role models that look like them that dress like them. And finally I tell them, you know, you need to find something that bothers you in your, in your community. And think what can you do? On your own, not what the government should do, not what somebody else should do, what you can do, and just go do that little thing, right? And that's what happened to me. I thought, Okay, kids don't read, I need to read to them, I gather them and I read a lot. So that was it. I wasn't thinking of anything else. Because of that concept of value that I have to try. And now we love reading is is in 58 countries. So it's like it's the chaos theory or the butterfly effect. When a butterfly flutters the swings in one part of the world, it creates a hurricane in another part of the world. So when you do that little thing, you know make your little good deeds, which is from Prophet Muhammad saying do not belittle any good deeds. You're changing the the community around you but in ways And in time that you will never imagine. And that's, that's, that's all we can do. And that's amazing. And that's wonderful. And I tell my students and everybody that you need to believe in yourself, you need to dream big, and believe in yourself and society has to trust you, you as a woman, they should trust you because you know better what's right and what's wrong, and you know, better what's important. Now versus tomorrow, you know, your priority society should trust women. And because if they trust them, and women do what they think is right, they will be happier. And when they're happier, it's contagious, everybody around them will become happy. And that way we can create a better community and change the better future for our generation. Well, future Zani.

Zarinah Shakir

Dr. Giussani, I just want to say thank you so much, you have what I'm now calling the aim concept, which is aspiration, inspiration and motivation. Thank you. Thank you for sharing with us today. And, and may God bless you as you proceed on your, your journey. Thank you again.

Dr. Rana Dajani

Thank you. Thank you very much. I have been enriched by it by knowing you all. Thanks.

Karim Ali

Yeah. And we on behalf of the Muslim life Planning Institute, I want to thank you both want to thank Dr. Rana Dajani as our episode five guests, and also our guest host today Zarinah Shakir here at the helm, and what a fine job. I wanted to just read a few acknowledgments before we end today's broadcast. The Muslim life planning Institute are the executive producers of Profound Conversations. The media expression and production work is done by the Aalia Network. webinar, technical and logistics are produced by Erika Christie and Khadija Ali, graphics animations flyers design cafe. Again, today's hosts was Savannah shake here, who is the host of perspectives of interfaith, which runs on a cable outlet channel in Arlington, Virginia, and I think throughout the country, right on some internet platforms. And I've had the honor of working on with Zarinah Shakir here for close to if not over 10 years, and as well had the the pleasure and honor of meeting personally Dr. Danaji, in Amman, Jordan a few years ago. Thank you very much on next week's program, I believe we're going to go into the area of governance and as well look at how we as a society begin to dismantle racism in its various forms. And so look for us next week, same time, same channel. Again, thank you so much everyone for attending this webinar.